HOL-GAR CE-106-AC/WK 9 EP Genset

[jonesal]

Recently completed a redo on a 1961 EP genset referenced in the subject line. It's a 120/208/240, single and three phase up to 104 amps. I bought it on auction for $400 knowing it would be a redo. It would not start or generate power, the culprits being a broken impulse coupling and one broken gen brush. So it gave me the oppotunity to do a complete disassembly, inspection, reassembly, and repaint. I honed and reringed the engine (800 original hours), new brushes, new ignition, new generator bearings, and a bunch of other Sundries. Interesting items about this genset, rated to -65F with winterization system, unique ignition (Slick mag), Military Standard Continenetal FS162, remote start (not bad for 1961) and dang durable (overdesigned) but not suprising for EP. The genset now runs and operates back within specs. It will be my emergency power for those nasty ice storms that crop up from time to time.

Here are the before pics. I will respond with during and after pics.







Allen
Holgar genset
M38A1
M35A2
M416
Other stuff

 

[jonesal]

Here are the during pics.









Allen

 

[jonesal]

And here are the after pics.







And thanks to Henry for all the help. He gets the Golden Award for the ultimate do-it-yourselfer.

Allen

 

[Carl_in_NH]

Nice job, Allen.

 

[jtcrews83]

It looks real nice. I hope mine looks some what as good as yours when we are done. Thanks for sharing the pictures.

 

[m38inmaine]

Looks great, don't see many gen rebuilds, nice to see it brought back to life.

 

[jonesal]

Thanks for the comments. I'm starting to gather that there aren't a lot of restorers on the list. I learned a fair bit on this project as I hadn't worked with three phase for awhile. It was very interesting to see how the designer implemented single and three phase from 120 to 240 V into one unit. To change from single 240 to three phase 208 takes less than 2 minutes which is impressive for a 1961 unit. Although the unit is rated at 10kW at 10,000 feet, with some minor modifications, I know it would do almost 20kW at 500 feet (which I won't do). It just speaks to how overdesigned the old stuff is.

Thanks,
Allen

 

[daleridge]

What a labor of love. I have a sister generator which looks identical to your before pictures. It runs and seems to be in good operating condition. I seem to spend all my time just keeping it serviced and runnning. I can't imagine the time and effort you put into the restoration. I admire your effort but question your sanity. This is a really nice job and the pictures are very informative for the rest of us to see what is underneath the sheet metal.

I am curious if you restored the combustion heater and winterization system. I have removed my heater and associated plumbing just to facilitate service access to other things. I guess that your climate may demand cold start but Nashville just doesn't get that cold. Thanks for the thread and I encourage you to use you obious talent on more worthy projects. I can say this because I share your weakness for rusty iron. It's a defective DNA thing.

 

[jonesal]

Oh yes, it got the full banana. The winterization system is essential for its rated start at -65 F (thats 65 below zero for you southlanders). The motor, fuel pump and combustion switch were easily refurbished. However, I could not find parts for the fuel regulator valve (diaphragm mostly). I suspect they are similar to most, but am still looking for a new regulator (or parts). It runs, but the brittleness of the diaphragm will only motivate me to use it in an emergency.

And that leads me to why I restored this thing. I actually use if for emergency power. So for a $400 purchase price and a few hundered more in parts, I have a genset that will last me the rest of my life. And it doesn't hurt that I absolutely had a blast doing it. I've restored many other things with wheels (some military, some not) and needed a break to work on something without wheels... during those -65F evenings in South Dakota...

I have attached the excerpts from the manuals on the winterizartion system for your use. I have posted the manual numbers for this genset under another thread.

Allen

 

[daleridge]

I put the winterization combustion heater back in my genset yesterday and when I hooked up the electrical cannon plug to the heater the yellow light came on the panel and the fan motor started running. I was unable to shut it off or turn the light off using the off/on switch. I eventually had to disconnect the plug to shut it down again. I noticed the beer can size device directly upstream of the fuel connection and thought it was probably a electric fuel pump. Is that what you refer to as a regulator and what has the brittle diaphram.

I also put a voltmeter on the batterys (which were recently charged) and it read 26.20 volts when the motor was not running and it read a variable 26.20 to 27.00 volts when the unit was as syncronous 60 hz speed. The reading was very unstable and the digital readout on my Fluke was unable to keep up with it. The battery gage on the panel stays midway in the green area of the arc when the unit is at speed and only has the slightest needle fluctuation. I noticed earlier this year when one of the batteries was going bad that the gage bounced almost out of the green arc back to midway repeadly. I replace one battery which would not hold a charge and all is well now.

I have had a bear of at time with the Marvel - Schebler Carb and it has taken quite a bit of work to get it right. I have added an in line fuel filter between the fuel pump and the carb and that seems to have helped considerbly. This after I replaced the needle valve and seat and repeatedly disassembled the carb for cleaning. The gas tank is sorta dirty inside and the fram filter must be missing some of the trash or maybe the fuel pump has some problems inside. I added the filter upon the advice of a fork lift mechanic friend who knows the continental engine/ Marvel carb like the back of his hand. He was right.

I am now contemplating painting the enclosure but only on the exterior. I will need to wire brush to remove some moderate corrosion near the base. What did you do to prepare the enclosure for painting. What paint and color did you use. Did you prime. Will wire brushing be enough or will it need sand blasting.

Also interested in which terminals on the output block below the panel you use for 220/110 v. My terminals are labeled L1 ,L2, L3, L0. L0 is obiously the ground but I will only need two other terminals to get 220 volts between them and 110 volts to ground. I know the unit is already set up for this because it was powering a house when I bought it. It ran a three ton air conditioner and oven/stove without effort.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[jonesal]

Check your flame switch to see if it's stuck (will require disassembly). Also check the on off winterization switch behind the operators panel.

The fuel regulator in attached/inside the winterization unit. The device you are referring to is the electric fuel pump for the winterization unit (easily serviced by disassembly). The winterization is a preheater so it's needs an electric fuel pump.

If you have the original dc generator and regulator on the genset, those are the 19 amp units and are weird. What you know about the 25 amp units does not 100% apply to the 19 amp units. The output should be 28.8 volts and the original gauge has the 28.8 volt tick in the green zone. You will need to adjust both the amperage cutout and voltage solenoids in the regulator to get it correct. Disconnect the battery before you remove the cover, don't ask me how I know...

You must have something wrong with your primary fuel filter as it will filter 100% of the junk very well, perhaps it is junk after the main filter. There is also a backup screen in the fuel pump you should clean for obstructions. I had to remove my gas tank and thoroughly clean it, then things were fine. When the carb is adjusted correctly, it will perform very nicely. Electric choke elements are still available if you want remote starting.

Paint: I scuffed what was there and sprayed on the correct color I got from ... was it Rapco or Army Jeep Parts? I can't remember. I painted everything before reassembly. The panels are aluminum and the frame is steel. I used an etching primer for anything I took to bare metal and used the Vietnam era dark OD color (1957 to present?). It was not a perfect match, but it was close. It had been painted twice in the military and both those colors were not a perfect match either.

No, L0 is NOT the ground. The frame is ground and the grounding post is on the left front of the frame. L0 is the neutral (and they are not the same thing). The supplied side will need it's own ground like modern NEC or NFPA code. You should have a wiring diagram on the genset on the left front door. THE WIRING DIAGRAM IN THE MANUAL HAS ERRORS. Use the genset wiring diagram for correctness. If you don't have one, I'll post the manual one, but beware. I assume you have the change out boards that change from three phase to single, 120, 208, and 240 (image 2345 above). I would not assume the correct one is installed until I saw it with my own eyes. For the 120/240 single phase board, it's terminals L0, L2, and L3.

Get yourself some manuals. All the proper grounding requirements are in them.

Good luck. You have a great genset that will last forever and is easy to fix in a pinch.

Please post pics of your progress!!!!!

Allen

PS I question whether 10kW can handle a 3 ton ac and electric appliances all at once, but you tell me what happens when you load it up. The generator itself can probably approach 17.5kW, but the regulator and controls will not. Also, the main relay is set at just below 60 amps to trip. So either this little buddy does more than I give it credit, or you are doing some of your own mods. My place has a 5 ton heat pump and electric appliances so I manage my loads very very carefully.

 

[saddamsnightmare]

March 24th, 2010.

Daleridge:

You may want to get the fuel tank cleaned and lined, as a lot of old gas engine system tanks tended to get water, rust, dirt and general crud in them, and it always gets to the filter screen and clogs them up. Our inline filters today are of much finer micro capacity, and they hate any dirt, which old systems are just full of. The Marvel Schwebler carburetors can be rebuilt, or replaced with equivalents, usually through Tractor Supply Company, but you may need to cross check numbers to get the right one. Failing that, check Obsolete Ford Parts, Dennis Carpenter Ford Parts, Mac's Ford Parts and Snyder's Model T and A Ford parts, as many of the Ford cars used very similar or identical carburetors, as did Massey Ferguson tractors... AND if you're really lucky and the mojo's right, look for a really old line auto parts place with an owner in his 70's, a lot of these guys never threw away their parts books and sometimes they either have the parts kits laying around or know who does have them.... Also, some generators were designed with surge capability, I do not know if yours was, but as an example, I have a Deutz GL49-440 custome built 30KW diesel designed to power at 1948 railroad dining car, all loads, 30 KW is the continuous output, but it can stand 35KW for one hour in 12 to kick over the 8 ton AC, and three 1-1/2 HP refrigeration compressors, also electric resistance heat and no AC in the winter, all other loads stay the same.

Good luck on your genset, they are over engineered, but then why buy modern and be disappointed????


Cheers,

Kyle F. McGrogan

 

[jonesal]

The stock carb rebuild kit is still available at your FLAPS. The only difficult part to find is the governor spring on the throttle shaft, but other carb springs will work (and that's what I had to do). There are several very close TSX NOS carbs on eBay if you need one that are close enough to make work. However, I can't see not (can't not? Hmmmm, better work on that) rebuilding the original one when the kits are readily available.

I hope you are right. If these can push more than the published rating, that's great!

Happy fixing.

Allen

 

[daleridge]

Allen you are right on. The combustion switch needed a 1/2 turn and the fan motor quit just like you said. I have the organizational maintenance manual and the operating manual but I guess I have been a bit lazy in reading the electrical schematics. I also found that the heater safety switch had tripped and would not manually reset. I jumpered it temporarily but still did not get the fuel pump or the ignitor to operate. I quit at that point. I have emailed Thermo-O-Disc (Emerson) for a cross reference on the apparently obsolete safety switch but have not received a reply as yet.

What I really need now is some understanding of how the winterization heater is suppost to work. What is the sequence of events for ignition. What runs first. What would trip the heater safety switch. What lights the gasoline. Is the ignitor simply a red hot rod or is it a sparking device. How long does the gas flow before the trial for ignition period lapses. I just don't know what to expect and the schematic does not really answer these questions. Could you give me a sequence of events that happens after you throw the winterization switch to the on position. I know this is asking you for a time consuming answer so if you don't have the interest I will certainly understand. This is more of a casual interest to me anyway since I really don't need the winterization system at this latitude.

But it's your fault. You started this thread. It's your burden to bear being such a show off.

Thanks
Bill

 

[jonesal]

Bill,

Sorry for the delayed response --> traveling for work.

If you get a response from therm-o-disk, post it here. I called them many times and never got one ounce of satisfaction. Good luck. That being said, you can take the safety switch apart, clean it, and it will probably work unless the bimetal disc has corroded. Clean the spring and plunger, check the resistor, and you should be good to go. Therm-o-disk was not even able to provide technical specs on this switch.

Resistance in the circuit heats a resister in the safety switch and it trips the bimetal disk severing the circuit. Check all your wiring. If you cannot hear the fuel pump buzzing, that may be it. Disassemble it, clean it, and reassemble with new gaskets (you'll have to make them). If the motor is working, that is one other thing to check. You may have to take the igniter out (heating element that ignites gas) if the flame will not start, but you smell gas. Check the ceramic disk in the combustion chamber as they are sometimes broken and that could ignite your whole genset (that's bad). So yes, it's a glowing spring thing that ignites the fuel on a soaked ceramic disk, not a spark.

The sequence when you throw the switch is fuel pump, igniter, flame on, all controlled by the flame switch. When this thing kicks, it sounds like a F-16 in after burner and it will smoke like heck the first time. When you shut off the switch, the motor will continue to run for a minute or two. When the chamber cools down enough, the flame switch shuts the motor off. If the gas does not shut off, you'll know it. Use the manual shut off and inspect the switch. Be sure and run water in the combustion water jacket or you may ruin it. That's all vague, but hopefully you get the point. I hope that all helps. Study the electrical diagram and it's all there including the flame switch control.

Allen

 

[daleridge]

Well I take two steps forward and one step back. While test running generator to adjust the carb under load, the engine completely died. When I removed the carb bowl drain nothing came out. When I removed the gas filter drain, nothing came out. Complete fuel starvation. So I removed and cleaned the gas tank and fuel lines and also did a little patching on the solder on the seams where it had a weep. I also reattached the fuel level float that had fallen off. This took me most of the day. You guys were right, the tank was really cruddy with rust and other sludge. The fuel lines looked to be completely full of caked brown "mud" at two of the fittings. I have no idea how it ran at all. With everything back together, it starts on the first turn. It runs really well and I am delighted. Thanks for the advice.

About the winterization unit, I screwed up. I removed the faulty Therm-O-Disk safety switch and had to remove the disc itself to pop it back into the reset position. It was permanently deflected in the off position. With some care I was able to reassemble it an to get it to trip and reset properly. The problem came when I went to reinstall the unit into the control panel. It is in a spot where it is almost immposible to get to the attachment bolts. I managed to accidently touch one of the terminals to a hot terminal on the back of the panel and fry the points. This switch is done. Yes you warned me to disconnect the battery but I didn't. I will need to engineer a replacement and Therm-O- Disc is not helping. I guess I will have to quess at the temperature trip point. I wonder how hot the resistor gets and how hot the inside of the box gets. I really don't understand what the purpose of the swithch is or what it is protecting.

I may just decide to abandon the winterization system. I let Allen get me all motivated and forge ahead. I am really happy with the performance now.

The battery condition gage comes up to the tic mark when the unit first starts and then backs off about 1/16 inch on the needle after a couple of minutes. The batterys are staying charged and I am OK with that. Oil pressure is 30+ PSI and temperature runs about 150 unless I close the radiator shutters and it comes up to 160 before the shutters automatically reopen.

One last question, I noticed from your photographs that he generator has a least one large bearing on the end opposite the motor. Do I need to lubricate this bearing or any other generator bearings and if so how. Do I have to remove the generator rotor to accomplish this. My unit has 380 hours showing on the Hobbs meter and I believe that is accurate.

Thanks for all the advice and help.

Daleridge

 

[daleridge]

I hesitate to post pictures of my generator after seeing Allen's but for the sake of interest her they are.

 

[jonesal]

Hey, nice generator!!! It's a keeper.

The safety switch builds up heat in the resistor that pops the bimetal switch. Ya, if you figure it out, let us know... so that we know. It was a mystery to me too. there are lots of modern therm-o-disk switches on eBay that you might be able to use. Just search for that term.

The only bearing in the generator is the one at the rear near the recifier. It's sealed so it does not require greasing. I replaced mine as it was apart. It's a standard bearing and can be replaced with the generator in place. Just remove the recifier, remove housing plate, use a puller to remove the bearing and lightly tap on the new on. Easy parcheesy. Don't break the brushes as they are fragile and can only be replaced by custom made ones for about $10 each. The bearing that takes the most beating is the front crankshaft bearing that controls endplay for the engine, and the generator as they are direclty bolted together. Mine was out of spec so I went ahead and replaced it. They are very difficult to find for this military standard motor. If you really do only have 300 hours or so, I would expect your bearing to be fine. Mine had 900 hours on it and it seems ok (not great, though).

Regarding the winterization system, it's not critical unless you are in the cold like me and may really need to preheat the engine. The engine does start pretty easy when cold as I've tested it down to 10 to 20 degrees and it started fine without the winterization system. The winterization switches are set at 40 degrees anyway so if you never get below that, the winterizatino system is useless. So... just send it to me!

Do you have the original battery box lid? I don't and am searching for pictures, especially of the temperture sensors in the lid and of the warming element.

Yes, the electrical diagram plate is missing from your door that covers the dc generator and tool box.

Good luck!

Allen

 

[daleridge]

You probably have this Figure 31 of the Battery Box which I found in TM 5-6115-269-20 dated October 1961. Your manual apparently is a later date and may not have it. I do not have the cover or the heaters. Don't know what happens to these. Maybe they are just inconvenient to keep.

Your electrical schematic is somewhat different from my installation and I have a schematic that came with the generator that appears to be correct. Maybe they made some changes over the years. The heater safety swithch seems to be one of the changes. The quality of these jpg's is not good here because the ones I have are not original but are copies themselfs. Hope this helps a little.

My latest problem is the fuel pump. Seems that the diaphram is leaking and I have gasoline dripping from the breather hole on the lower half of the unit. I have leads that this is a Continental F400F312 part number but Continental stopped support for this engine 3 years ago and does not have it. I also have a lead that says it is cross referenced to a Airtex 570 fuel pump but I have not found a source of either pump or diaphram as yet.

It's like herding cats.

Bill

 

[jonesal]

Bill,

A rebuild kit is available for the fuel pump. I rebuilt mine and it was easy. The kit comes with the one way valves, diaphragm, gaskets, screen, etc. A nice kit for $35 for your exact pump. It even has a modern diaphragm that will not degenerate in modern gas. I will try and dig up the vendors name and address and post.

Yes, the electrical schematics are different, thanks for sharing.

Do you have the -35P manual? That's the one with all the parts and numbers. The figures make repair much easier.

You'll have a new genset before you know it.

Oh, big find on eBay two weeks ago was the proper pickup tube adapter for the aux. fuel hookup. It's the one that sucks fuel up in a jerry can (verses the gravity feed adapter that would work, but is not ocrrect). It also has the tubes for a 55 gallon drum. Now I'm set if the power goes out for weeks!

I was going to make a battery box lid from scratch so that the winterization unit was complete, but I said the heck with it. If I ever get caught in -65F and need the generator, I have more problems than getting electricity...

Next step, let's post videos!

Allen