Hydraulic Head Assistance

[Elijah95]

Good evening everyone, I need some help.
Today I replaced my hydraulic head O-Rings, but ran into a hiccup; while looking through the advance port to locate the white paint (which I did see) I then began carefully barring the engine over looking for the Red Mark inside the shutoff cover. I used compressed air to blow the gear clean, but after 4 complete rotations of the engine I never located even faint red paint. None!

Okay, so by looking in the advance port, I identified the white paint again using @Jeepsinker videos, pulled the nuts and gently one-handed removed the HH, okay great! That must mean I’m pretty dang close right? Try my hardest not to rotate it, using brake clean I remove the oil residue and mark it with a red-paint pen just so I can keep track of where it’s at. Spin gear around, can never find any hints of old paint or scribed tooth. Oh well, change HH o rings, recover the old button laying in the pump, recover old clip, gently reassemble with new button and clip, then slip HH back onto truck. Pops right in no resistance, slight little wiggle to get it in. (I’m thinking it moved before I could mark it)

Alright, new o ring on shutoff, line up the pin per Ken Spencer’s video (MVPartstore) and triple check flawless, easy movement of the shutoff lever with screws snug but no binding, and snappy return. Good! Okay cover back on, time to test fire.

Start truck up, and it won’t idle, keep it running for 10 minutes, and go for a test drive. Throttle extremely sensitive, smoke unknown because it’s dark out, power is normal to slightly more than before. Truck will idle after test drive, easy hot-restart, idle is clean no crazy or hazing smoke.

Before: easy start, good idle at 750 rpm, can idle off it 1st gear on flat ground and never touch the throttle, good throttle response but very “flat” feeling throttle with linear response, good power. **Fuel pouring from hydraulic head onto ground from o-ring failure

After: easy start, failed to idle for a while, then after drive idle the same @ 750. Cannot idle off from stop in 1st gear, even in low side any load on engine and it’s going dead without throttle, throttle is extremely touchy with just 10% throttle feels like 40% before.

What am I missing here?
Any suggestions?

I removed the shutoff cover and double checked the shutoff lever again, feels good, free moving and snaps back easy.


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[Recovry4x4]

Did you take the shutoff lever off of the shaft? I questioned that on my 5 ton when I put it together because it wouldn't idle. Apparently I did get it right, mine ended up being something sticky on the governor housing. After a few heat cycles, it's working just fine. Yours is a little perplexing.

 

[Elijah95]

Did you take the shutoff lever off of the shaft? I questioned that on my 5 ton when I put it together because it wouldn't idle. Apparently I did get it right, mine ended up being something sticky on the governor housing. After a few heat cycles, it's working just fine. Yours is a little perplexing.

I did not break that part down, but I did pay close attention to it’s movement and it’s buttery-smooth. After speaking with @clinto, I’m leaning towards it may be a scribed tooth that I failed to spot, leading to me being 1 tooth off. I’m going to cold-start it in the morning to see how she cranks, and maybe log 100 miles on it in the next few weeks to give it a chance, if the normal torquey feel of the engine returns and it will idle off from stop in 1st again I’ll probably leave it be, otherwise I’ll be doing it over again


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[Jeepsinker]

Yeah you got it off by one tooth advanced instead of retarded. Not hard to do that when the mark isn't painted and your lighting is poor. It's happened to me a couple times too.

 

[Elijah95]

Yeah you got it off by one tooth advanced instead of retarded. Not hard to do that when the mark isn't painted and your lighting is poor. It's happened to me a couple times too.

This morning I started it up, and it hunts pretty aggressive from 500-1200rpm cold and smooths out at 750 when warm. With it being advanced does it mean I have a race truck now?

Oh well, I’m going to fix it, but for educational sake what would be the short/long term effects of running it 1 tooth advanced?


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[Jeepsinker]

You've Basically advanced your injection timing, which raises cylinder pressure a lot, especially on these engines. You'll certainly blow a headgasket in short order.
I'd suggest doing a retorque now.

 

[Elijah95]

Update: I spent the evening going through everything again today:
•the white paint in the advance window
•my “new” red mark lined up

Pulled HH, cleaned and cleaned, until I found the scribe mark (couldn’t see the paint with any oil residue it was so faint) and it was 180° away. **Note this mistake**

Mark scribe mark with red paint
Double check relief cut in gear is there
Drop it in, reassemble, crank it up, you guessed it. A slight sniff of Teflon spray for soft starting boost, better than ether IMO, and it tumbled to life 180° out. Smoking light a freight train! She normally burns clean and clear;
Lord have mercy, I created some new words.

Oh well, everything happens for a reason. Now I’m going to pull both valve covers, set valve lash (why not?), guarantee #1 piston position via valves, redo the hydraulic head, set it dead on the money, toss new gaskets on, and go for a spin. So much for a 1-time project LOL


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[Elijah95]

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[Floridianson]

Just trying to get a grip on it with two TM's two stickies and multiple threads on taking out just the Head you had problems. It really is a simple job. Now taking out the whole IP is a little more entailed getting it timed. You might want to line up the harmonic balancer on the compression stroke and it's correct mark. Line up the advance window on it's mark then make sure the Head is just about one tooth off to the rear.

 

[Floridianson]

Also finding the Head red / scribe is not a problem if you can not find it first time of the Head gear going around. Using Gimpyrobb aka Chris's easy way to find TDC compression stroke on the multi fuel without removing the valve cover. Remove the oil fill cap and rotate the engine clockwise facing the motor. When you see the # 2 exhaust valve start to close you should just be able to see the correct TDC compression stroke HB marks. Bring the HB to it's correct mark the advance window should also be lining up with it's mark and the head should be just about one tooth off to the rear. I do not care what any you tube says the correct timing for the Deuce IP is just about one tooth off to the rear when checking timing by way of the HB and advance window. Back to it wow you found the Head red/ scribe fast and easy. Now rotate the engine counter clockwise till the the Head red /scribe is about three teeth off to the front of the motor. Now we rotate again clockwise and when the Head red/ scribe is dead on it's pointer we remove the Head. The only time we have seen on the board the Head does not come out when the Head red / scribe is on it's mark is when some did not install the Head dead on it's mark. Yes we can only remove the Head when put in correct when the red /scribe is on it's mark but if installed off mark then is does not like to come out and people will bend the quill shaft cut out washer. Like someone telling you you have to pry the Head out. Never pry, it will lift out and if not then there is a problem or you have a code G pump with oil feed Head. There we need to remove the oil screen that feeds the Head. It's in the TM with pretty pictures. So bottom line to remove the Head we do not have to worry about the advance window or the HB TDC. Just find the Head red / scribe mark if you can without doing the TDC thing, line it up to it's pointer and remove the Head. It is easer than removing and installing the distributor from a gas engine.

 

[NY Tom]

Great info above this worked for me in the past. Thanks for posting/reposting.

 

[Elijah95]

Also finding the Head red / scribe is not a problem if you can not find it first time of the Head gear going around. Using Gimpyrobb aka Chris's easy way to find TDC compression stroke on the multi fuel without removing the valve cover. Remove the oil fill cap and rotate the engine clockwise facing the motor. When you see the # 2 exhaust valve start to close you should just be able to see the correct TDC compression stroke HB marks. Bring the HB to it's correct mark the advance window should also be lining up with it's mark and the head should be just about one tooth off to the rear. I do not care what any you tube says the correct timing for the Deuce IP is just about one tooth off to the rear when checking timing by way of the HB and advance window. Back to it wow you found the Head red/ scribe fast and easy. Now rotate the engine counter clockwise till the the Head red /scribe is about three teeth off to the front of the motor. Now we rotate again clockwise and when the Head red/ scribe is dead on it's pointer we remove the Head. The only time we have seen on the board the Head does not come out when the Head red / scribe is on it's mark is when some did not install the Head dead on it's mark. Yes we can only remove the Head when put in correct when the red /scribe is on it's mark but if installed off mark then is does not like to come out and people will bend the quill shaft cut out washer. Like someone telling you you have to pry the Head out. Never pry, it will lift out and if not then there is a problem or you have a code G pump with oil feed Head. There we need to remove the oil screen that feeds the Head. It's in the TM with pretty pictures. So bottom line to remove the Head we do not have to worry about the advance window or the HB TDC. Just find the Head red / scribe mark if you can without doing the TDC thing, line it up to it's pointer and remove the Head. It is easer than removing and installing the distributor from a gas engine.

Took it apart, my “fake” marking was visible, here’s the current damper and advance port. Looks like my pump may have been improperly assembled to the engine


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[Floridianson]

Maybe. I never use the advance window as it is a waist of time and it will not be on mark same time as Head. Last time Allen and myself just used the #2 exhaust valve and when he said it was starting to close he then started to watch for the scribe mark and we hit it first time around. I use jack shaft trans. in 5th and have no problem with the engine compression so no need to loosen injector hold downs. Sometimes the you tube is not as good as our TM's or threads as the incorrect will get corrected here on SS. Pointing out boob tube errors the poster can just delete you post so I do not even try.

 

[Elijah95]

So I drank a beer, pulled out my TMs, consulted @Jeepsinker, then managed to turn the engine by mashing on the belt and turning the fan, set TDC via the rocker arms, and dialed in the quill washer 50/50 split because it was SLIGHTLY off. “I just don’t trust anything at this point” I think to myself as I set the correct red mark on the HH pointer, locked everything down, remember my white paint in advance window along with the harmonic balancer are wayyyy off from what the manual states, hit the starter and it rumbled to life happily. Cleaned up my tools and went for a cruise, honestly I have never been so happy to have my slow but clean burning multifuel back running right.


I really hope someone can learn from my ventures here, I have some editing to do on the video I’m making, but I’ll publish it. If I can save just one person this headache it’ll be worth the time to edit and post




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[Sthrnamp]

So is this likely my problem? For reference sake, the duece ran fine when I parked her for brake issues. Began assembling parts and TMs for brakes and it took longer than I anticipated. Here it is a year later and I have just gotten around to working on her, but now she won't start. Tried everything except removing the pump head, she will start with assistance (starting fluid/gas rag) but she won't run on her own....HH button?


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[Jeepsinker]

So is this likely my problem? For reference sake, the duece ran fine when I parked her for brake issues. Began assembling parts and TMs for brakes and it took longer than I anticipated. Here it is a year later and I have just gotten around to working on her, but now she won't start. Tried everything except removing the pump head, she will start with assistance (starting fluid/gas rag) but she won't run on her own....HH button?


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Fuel lever may just be stuck. Pull the shutoff cover and check.