Hydrogen Generator

[jimh1985]

Just my 2 cents but, everyone is right making the hydrogen will cost more power than you gain... But when it mixes with the diesel it will ignite better and burn more efficiently! thus fixing that problem and giving you better performance. The deuce is not computer controlled so It will not make the computer give it more fuel so you wont lose gas mileage only gain it. Not to mention with the rpm and the mass of that motor turning at 2000 rpm its not going to notice the increase in draw from the alt...

 

[mobileauto2000]

You may increase performance, (But i doubt it as you are adding unregulated fuel to the system.) But you CAN NOT gain mileage. Laws of physics every time you change one kind of energy into another (electricity to hydrogen) you lose some. In an alternator most of that energy is lost as heat.

 

[Stalwart]

The deuce is not computer controlled so It will not make the computer give it more fuel so you wont lose gas mileage only gain it. Not to mention with the rpm and the mass of that motor turning at 2000 rpm its not going to notice the increase in draw from the alt...

 

[m16ty]

Alot of people seem to be under the misconception that the alternator gets a "free ride". While it is true that you normally won't notice a power drop from the alternator, it is robing power from the engine if it's turning. It is taking more power to run the alternator than you are producing.

I know there are still some people that don't believe what I say. I say to you, build it and prove me wrong. I'll be the first to admit if I'm wrong but I'm not too worried. I'll even sweeten the pot, if I'm proven wrong you can come by my place and I'll give you a years supply of free water you can turn into hydrogen .

I'm not writing the whole hydrogen generator thing off but you're going to have go get something such as solar power to produce it. The truck electrical system will never work.

 

[wjruth]

I work for Walgreens - they have been testing a system for the last 6 months. They took three trucks - 2006 models, and ran them six months tracking miles and fuel consumption. Then six months with the device - the testing just finished. The rough data that I saw indicates a change of less than .2 mpg (on a truck that gets 6 mpg). In a years time these trucks put on 150,000 miles. I'm not sure how things like going down a hill with 80k lbs using gravity to assist might skew the results but if the truck is burning cleaner would that mean fewer re-gen cycles were the computer just dumps fuel into the exhaust?

 

[TexAndy]

Just my 2 cents but, everyone is right making the hydrogen will cost more power than you gain... But when it mixes with the diesel it will ignite better and burn more efficiently! thus fixing that problem and giving you better performance. The deuce is not computer controlled so It will not make the computer give it more fuel so you wont lose gas mileage only gain it. Not to mention with the rpm and the mass of that motor turning at 2000 rpm its not going to notice the increase in draw from the alt...

Why would adding pure hydrogen to a hydrocarbon make it burn "more efficiently?"

What do you mean it won't notice the increase in draw from the alternator? Of course it will. The fact that the the engine is capable of providing the power necessary to crack the water has nothing to do with it.

TANSTAAFL. There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Alternators don't turn of their own free will. The more load you put on them, the harder they are to turn and the more energy they take to turn.

I have an experiment that will PROVE to anyone beyond any doubt that this is so:

Take a stationary bike generator and pedal it without it being hooked up to anything. Pretty easy, right? Now hook the leads up to a battery and try to charge the battery up. Ugh, it's like riding up a mountainside!

But wait, we just disproved a fundamental law of thermodynamics, didn't we? We're charging the battery for nothing! Free energy, right? Wrong.

You're burning more chemical energy stored in your body to turn that generator with a load on it than you would be to turn the one without anything connected to it.

Oh yeah, and the kicker... guess what? Even when you were pedaling the bike without the battery hooked up, you were still burning energy. Why? Friction. Friction in your muscles, in your joints, between your feet and the pedals, in the bearings of the wheels... everywhere.

This is why if you were to implement one of these HHO schemes on a large enough scale to make any kind of noticeable difference, the difference you're most likely to see in fuel mileage is a significant decrease.

 

[abh3]

Adding HHO may help the flame front propagate across the combustion chamber upon ignition while the piston is just beginning the power stroke thus enhancing efficiency and power. This might be best exploited in engines w/ less than ideal combustion chamber designs or using alternative fuels. Pull the head off your average big block Dodge and usually you'll notice that the edges of the pistons are pretty clean, the mixture just doesn't propagate evenly across the piston before it begins to move down on the power stroke and the remainder of the mixture is compromised by exhaust gasses. This is why LPG/NG engines need less ignition advance, the flame front moves very efficiently across the combustion chamber. Another way of thinking of it is that the more advance an engine needs (discounting RPM) the less efficient the combustion chamber it has. This doesn't mean crap design, it could just mean big bore, like the Mopar 440 example where the 4.34" bore is just too much considering the 454 chebby and the mighty 426 Hemi both have only 4.25 bores...

A diesel might have different problems as the injector does its thing, the fuel mixture isn't distributed across the combustion chamber but instead appears rapidly and locally at poor stoiciometric ratios, the Multi head design encourages 'tumble' to get a clean burn (or so I'm told) so I'm not sure how HHO would help much unless it simply lights unburned diesel that escaped the primary combustion... Burning that extra diesel would clean up unburned hydrocarbons but may not do much for power if the piston is already well on it's way down on the power stroke. Like the man said, timing is everything...

Whether or not that benefit is worth the energy and equipment cost is the question.

 

[swbradley1]

And still the debate goes on.......

 

[gimpyrobb]

Silly Steve, remember the thread that had 30 pages about the deuce's transfer case? We have a couple pages to go.

 

[TexAndy]

I was under the impression that petroleum refiners and engine manufacturers long, long ago agreed upon certain formulations of fuel as most efficient and least damaging.

My car manual says to put 87 octane in it. Others call for 89 or 91. I highly doubt my car will run more efficiently if I burn some unknown ratio of pure hydrogen with my 87 octane gasoline.

By the same token, if adding hydrogen increases efficiency... why aren't any gas stations offering blended fuel at the pump? If it worked, wouldn't Valero or Exxon have stickers all over their pumps advertising "New, improved hydro-boost technology!" or somesuch?

 

[tigger]

I wonder if you could make it run on hot air you guys could have gotten a few miles by now!

 

[Stalwart]

This whole HHO scheme is to separate the gullible and least informed persons from their hard earned money, nothing more.

 

[PUZZLED]

Hello all. I have a good bit of experience w/ the HHO generators, and there is one thing i haven't seen come from the discussion.

Volumetric efficiency

Most engines run 60+% volumetric efficiency.

While i agree that the energy in vs. energy out is not a battle any slightly inteligent person should attempt to have. We all know that you can never get out more than you put in, and if you believe that its possible than you really do need some snake oil.

I have built several different design HHO generators as a hobby in the garage. They eat up a lot of energy and are a pain to regulate correctly and keep full of the proper mix of water and electrolyte. But i can say after figuring out the balance of the machine if increases the VOLUMETRIC EFFICIENCY of the engine you are applying to.

The Hydrogen injected has a MUCH FASTER flame front that diesel or even gasoline. This "HHO" present in you air/fuel mix allows for a much faster flame propagation across the combustion area.

I have watched a 5 gas analyzer w/ an HHO machine on and off and the difference in combustion quality is immediately obvious. Your NOx drop to near zero (which means you are lowering combustion temperatrues), the CO2 and 02 come very close to the 15% region which is almost perfect, and the CO drops to a 0.# which is another note for the performance of the actual flame front as it travels through the combustion area.

ALL THAT SAID.... DO I RUN ONE.... **** no!

They are a pain and not worth the time (IMHO). Yet i do believe they are a great supplement system for someone that wants to play w/ it. It would go along the lines of keeping things clean in the engine also.

AND THAT is just my

 

[TexAndy]

I wonder if you could make it run on hot air you guys could have gotten a few miles by now!

IIRC, Mercedez or somebody made a car that re-used some of the exhaust heat to power a Stirling type engine for increased overall efficiency.

 

[Sig229]

My gosh someone is a gullible teenager. "Free spooling generator" is another bit of hogwash, every watt of power extracted from an alternator REQUIRES extra fuel from the engine to turn it. There is no free lunch people, if it worked as advertised, the major manufacturers would be using it. Further, disconnecting an O2 sensor and adjusting timing AFTER TDC . . .

That's almost as funny as calling a replica GT500 with a Chevy engine "a piece of history". Your history perhaps, but not to anyone else. To those of us that have or had a REAL Shelby vehicle, it is an insult.

BTW, who peed on my cornflakes this morning? C'mon man up and admit it!

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Hello,
I have been experimenting with the system and agree with the power use to production ratio. I learned if you use a potentiometer to lower the Volts from 12V to 2V less heat is produced and you can get some positive results. The solution to the oxygen sensor is not to remove it, but install a spacer to trick the computer.