Increasing the air intake in a deuce

[INFChief]

I just recall all the turbo deuces in our motorpool being a bit faster and more powerful than the non-turbo'd trucks.

I don’t know about faster….but they had much better response and torque.

 

[INFChief]

Everyone knows a whistler turbo adds 80hp, 22mph and +25 cool factor!

I knew a girl like that once.

 

[kendelrio]

I knew a girl like that once.

Was she hotter than a two dollar pistol?

 

[INFChief]

Was she hotter than a two dollar pistol?

But legal!

 

[John S-B]

.
I almost wonder if they really were faster - or was that whistler turbo making it sound like it was going faster? I don't know for sure, but every time I ever drove one it "sounded " like it was going faster too...

I'm pretty sure you could hit a higher top speed with them, and keep up with a convoy better, especially in hilly areas.

 

[Floridianson]

Will agree the intake with engine coolant running through it and no inter cooler not the best for making power. The turbo that is spec out for the multi to run at 2600 rpm or 2850 rpm for the LDS and make good power in all the RPM range. To big and you might loose that range. Saying put a bigger turbo is not the way we make reliable performance in a diesel if you choose wrong.

 

[rustystud]

Will agree the intake with engine coolant running through it and no inter cooler not the best for making power. The turbo that is spec out for the multi to run at 2600 rpm or 2850 rpm for the LDS and make good power in all the RPM range. To big and you might loose that range. Saying put a bigger turbo is not the way we make reliable performance in a diesel if you choose wrong.

I never said it would make reliable HP. Just if he wanted a "little more" power then go with a new Turbo.
Need to read what was posted, not make assumptions.

 

[montaillou]

but I graduated in 1964 when high school taught home economics, shop, mechanical drawing, typing, cosmetology, bookkeeping and several other practical skills for those NOT going to college.

Did you also walk up hill, to school, both ways?

 

[Gypsyman]

But the stock air filter is only rated at 410 cuft. That means the maximum boost the filter can handle is 1.162461 times atmospheric pressure or about 2.27 pounds of boost at max RPM's. Otherwise you are starving it of air or destroyong the filter. No higher math required, although the engineers probably have much more exact ways of figuring it out to 17 decimal places.

So by your math the trucks are physically incapable of making more than 2.27 psi of boost without destroying the filter? How is it that C and D turbo equipped truck make far more than this on a stock filter? Where is the incoming air coming from for the turbo to compress?

 

[Mullaney]

Did you also walk up hill, to school, both ways?

.
@montaillou - Of course not! We couldn't walk up hill both ways - but we could definitely ride a dinosaur to school

 

[Gypsyman]

Has anybody tried to increase the air intake capacity on the air filter housing on a deuce by adding a second hole for a mushroom cap under the hood, or maybe a second one out of the side of the hood?? I put a Banks intake on my Jeep Wrangler when I got it, and it made a HUGE difference, just wondering if that would work on a deuce. I also wondered if having an intake under the hood my cause overheating issues on hot days possibly. Not sure if this has been asked before, but I didn't see anything like this asked, just talk about switching air filter housings altogether.

I think the answer to your question is that nobody knows. Maybe no one has tried it. If no one has actually tried it then all you will get are opinions. The only way to know for sure is to try it. I don't have the money to take and entire intake system from mushroom cap turbo inlet and have it flow tested. That is the only definitive way to know if the filter or the complete intake system is the restriction in the system.

I can't speak to the Deuce's intake system because I just started messing with mine and the intake system is a ways down the list. I can however speak to the field that I cam from which is the Cummins powered Dodge Rams. Bear with me...

The common rail equipped Cummins, which hit the market in 2003, has an absurd little air box on them. It was the first thing that typically was swapped out by the performance crowd. I was doing routine maintenance on mine one day and noticed that Fleetguard had stamped the filter with a flow rating of something along the lines of 986 cfm. I don't recall the exact number but for arguments sake I can find it again if necessary. I thought to myself "that can't be right" for a tiny little panel filter so I shot an email off to Fleetguard. The next day I had a confirmation back from them that the number was correct.

Brand new trucks off the lot were notorious for pulling down the filter minder which was mounted on the airbox. That generated a LOT of customer complaints. Chrysler's answer was to swap out to a filter minder with a higher set point. After looking at the design of the airbox it was obvious where the restriction was coming from. The box was pulling through a (roughly) 2" x 6" hole in the fender. To solve that problem I grabbed a hole saw and punched a 4" opening in the bottom of the box. I covered it with 1/2" mesh for safety and went to my usual testing spot on a windless day.

The results were surprising to say the least. A solid 50° to 60° drop at cruise and right at a 100° drop at WOT in high gear. On that particular application to achieve a 100° drop would have taken an additional 10 psi of cool boost. I accomplished it with nothing but a hole saw and a few minutes of my time. That also proved to me that the airbox itself was the actual restriction in the system and not the filter element. I repeated this on numerous customer trucks over the years with the same results every time. An added bonus was that the original filter minder no longer pulled down unless the filter was actually contaminated.

Here's the funniest part. Roughly 15 years after people started doing this to their trucks Ram came out with something called "Active Air". Guess what is was. A computer controlled door on the bottom of the air box to allow more air in under high load situations. LOL!

Like I said. Unless someone has actually tried what you are asking about and can provide data stating that it does or doesn't work you will never know unless you try it and report back with your findings. Personally. I think that the system as a whole can be improved upon. As a stop gap I brought in a Donaldson Air Ram to replace the mushroom cap on mine. Down the road I will be experimenting with a different housing if I can find one with decent flow ratings, readily available filters, and a compact design that doesn't look out of place on the truck.

Excuse my rambling style. I'm not much of a typist or writer.

Richard

 

[Mullaney]

I think the answer to your question is that nobody knows. Maybe no one has tried it. If no one has actually tried it then all you will get are opinions. The only way to know for sure is to try it. I don't have the money to take and entire intake system from mushroom cap turbo inlet and have it flow tested. That is the only definitive way to know if the filter or the complete intake system is the restriction in the system.

I can't speak to the Deuce's intake system because I just started messing with mine and the intake system is a ways down the list. I can however speak to the field that I cam from which is the Cummins powered Dodge Rams. Bear with me...

The common rail equipped Cummins, which hit the market in 2003, has an absurd little air box on them. It was the first thing that typically was swapped out by the performance crowd. I was doing routine maintenance on mine one day and noticed that Fleetguard had stamped the filter with a flow rating of something along the lines of 986 cfm. I don't recall the exact number but for arguments sake I can find it again if necessary. I thought to myself "that can't be right" for a tiny little panel filter so I shot an email off to Fleetguard. The next day I had a confirmation back from them that the number was correct.

Brand new trucks off the lot were notorious for pulling down the filter minder which was mounted on the airbox. That generated a LOT of customer complaints. Chrysler's answer was to swap out to a filter minder with a higher set point. After looking at the design of the airbox it was obvious where the restriction was coming from. The box was pulling through a (roughly) 2" x 6" hole in the fender. To solve that problem I grabbed a hole saw and punched a 4" opening in the bottom of the box. I covered it with 1/2" mesh for safety and went to my usual testing spot on a windless day.

The results were surprising to say the least. A solid 50° to 60° drop at cruise and right at a 100° drop at WOT in high gear. On that particular application to achieve a 100° drop would have taken an additional 10 psi of cool boost. I accomplished it with nothing but a hole saw and a few minutes of my time. That also proved to me that the airbox itself was the actual restriction in the system and not the filter element. I repeated this on numerous customer trucks over the years with the same results every time. An added bonus was that the original filter minder no longer pulled down unless the filter was actually contaminated.

Here's the funniest part. Roughly 15 years after people started doing this to their trucks Ram came out with something called "Active Air". Guess what is was. A computer controlled door on the bottom of the air box to allow more air in under high load situations. LOL!

Like I said. Unless someone has actually tried what you are asking about and can provide data stating that it does or doesn't work you will never know unless you try it and report back with your findings. Personally. I think that the system as a whole can be improved upon. As a stop gap I brought in a Donaldson Air Ram to replace the mushroom cap on mine. Down the road I will be experimenting with a different housing if I can find one with decent flow ratings, readily available filters, and a compact design that doesn't look out of place on the truck.

Excuse my rambling style. I'm not much of a typist or writer.

Richard

.
Nice writeup Richard. Lots of good and logical and well reasoned ideas there. Especially with Dodge creating "Active Air". Chances are that somebody saw it and happened to talk to just the right person - and the magic happened.

Tim
.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Found my notes, 575cfm on m35a3 filter.

I did notice about 135 degree cooler egt with this setup over the stock filter.

 

[Gypsyman]

Found my notes, 575cfm on m35a3 filter.

I did notice about 135 degree cooler egt with this setup over the stock filter.

Now THAT is good data. Was the drop at cruise or under a load?

 

[DaneGer21]

To bad K&N doesn’t have a replacement. (Even though they usually just run a larger micron compared to original to gain cfm)

 

[Gypsyman]

With the advancements in media it would be nice if someone could come out with a higher flowing filter that had the required capacity and micron rating. Unfortunately we are a micro segment and I don't see a company investing the R&D time or cost.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

Now THAT is good data. Was the drop at cruise or under a load?

Pulling the same long grade on the interstate near me at 55mph with just the truck and the 6,346.8 pounds of parts I carry along everywhere

Only about 50 degree drop at cruise.

 

[Gypsyman]

.
Nice writeup Richard. Lots of good and logical and well reasoned ideas there. Especially with Dodge creating "Active Air". Chances are that somebody saw it and happened to talk to just the right person - and the magic happened.

Tim
.

The end users did a lot of troubleshooting, problem solving, and product development for Cummins and Daimler-Chrysler. They were constantly watching the Cummins forums and high performance websites. When I owned my old company I could see who had visited the site, how long they stayed, and what pages they had looked at. Chrysler and Cummins were surfing my store front a lot. Cummins about once a month and Chrysler almost weekly.

Back in the heyday (pre-ULSD fuel) there were a lot of common rail injector failures and nobody could figure out why. We assumed it was water in the fuel and decided to focus on filtration first. I designed a few different filtration kits and was selling them through my online storefront. One day I received an order from Chrysler R&D for 3 of every kit that I made in house. They didn't even use a proxy buyer or ghost account. I was just starting out and needed the sales so I filled the order. One kit in particular put an additional F/W separator on the frame rail. Not 6 months later Chrysler came out with the Severe Service Upgrade Kit. It was my kit with a mass production bracket and beautifully formed stainless hard lines instead of the flexible lines that I was using. That kit became a standard Chrysler upgrade for problem trucks and they charged 4x what I was selling them for.

I miss those days. The new product list was always long. I wish I had been around when the Deuce craze was in full swing and surplus was cheap.

 

[Gypsyman]

Pulling the same long grade on the interstate near me at 55mph with just the truck and the 6,346.8 pounds of parts I carry along everywhere

Only about 50 degree drop at cruise.

Considering the CFM increase those numbers actually seem like they are right inline to me. Thank you for posting your results.

 

[rustystud]

I think the answer to your question is that nobody knows. Maybe no one has tried it. If no one has actually tried it then all you will get are opinions. The only way to know for sure is to try it. I don't have the money to take and entire intake system from mushroom cap turbo inlet and have it flow tested. That is the only definitive way to know if the filter or the complete intake system is the restriction in the system.

I can't speak to the Deuce's intake system because I just started messing with mine and the intake system is a ways down the list. I can however speak to the field that I cam from which is the Cummins powered Dodge Rams. Bear with me...

The common rail equipped Cummins, which hit the market in 2003, has an absurd little air box on them. It was the first thing that typically was swapped out by the performance crowd. I was doing routine maintenance on mine one day and noticed that Fleetguard had stamped the filter with a flow rating of something along the lines of 986 cfm. I don't recall the exact number but for arguments sake I can find it again if necessary. I thought to myself "that can't be right" for a tiny little panel filter so I shot an email off to Fleetguard. The next day I had a confirmation back from them that the number was correct.

Brand new trucks off the lot were notorious for pulling down the filter minder which was mounted on the airbox. That generated a LOT of customer complaints. Chrysler's answer was to swap out to a filter minder with a higher set point. After looking at the design of the airbox it was obvious where the restriction was coming from. The box was pulling through a (roughly) 2" x 6" hole in the fender. To solve that problem I grabbed a hole saw and punched a 4" opening in the bottom of the box. I covered it with 1/2" mesh for safety and went to my usual testing spot on a windless day.

The results were surprising to say the least. A solid 50° to 60° drop at cruise and right at a 100° drop at WOT in high gear. On that particular application to achieve a 100° drop would have taken an additional 10 psi of cool boost. I accomplished it with nothing but a hole saw and a few minutes of my time. That also proved to me that the airbox itself was the actual restriction in the system and not the filter element. I repeated this on numerous customer trucks over the years with the same results every time. An added bonus was that the original filter minder no longer pulled down unless the filter was actually contaminated.

Here's the funniest part. Roughly 15 years after people started doing this to their trucks Ram came out with something called "Active Air". Guess what is was. A computer controlled door on the bottom of the air box to allow more air in under high load situations. LOL!

Like I said. Unless someone has actually tried what you are asking about and can provide data stating that it does or doesn't work you will never know unless you try it and report back with your findings. Personally. I think that the system as a whole can be improved upon. As a stop gap I brought in a Donaldson Air Ram to replace the mushroom cap on mine. Down the road I will be experimenting with a different housing if I can find one with decent flow ratings, readily available filters, and a compact design that doesn't look out of place on the truck.

Excuse my rambling style. I'm not much of a typist or writer.

Richard

I replaced my filter years ago with the newer M35A3 filter. Really no noticeable difference.
Higher flow and everything. The problem is and has been the Turbo and restrictive air manifold.
The factory Turbo was only installed to eliminate "Black Smoke" from the engine to calm down the environmental pollution people back then.
I've talked with a tractor pull guy who used the MultiFuel engine years ago. I asked him what he did to modify the engine. He told me the whole story what he had done from the beginning to what he was using then which was an engine putting out 5,000 HP !!!
Of course that engine had almost nothing to do with our Deuce engine anymore but it started out as one. His number one suggestion for our applications was to add a better Turbo. That and then increase the fuel supply. That alone could increase the HP to 250 to 300 HP.
I then went to a Diesel Turbo rebuilder in Seattle and talked with him about what Turbo would be a good fit for our MultiFuel. I posted about this years ago here. I cannot remember the Turbo number but it came off a Ford Power Stroke 6.9L or the newer 6.6L.
So you can try and play with the air filter but it will not give you any more power. I already did try that.