Injector Pump failure?

[WS2811]

Well, the day started out good. I thought we could get some logging done with my son off from work. The deuce started and ran fine, about an hour into some light winch work, we were rewinding the cable, RPMs at about 1500, got to the end, I backed off the throttle, push the clutch in, engine continues running at about 1200 RPM. I burp the throttle a little to see if it will kick down and the engine just shut down as if I pulled out the kill lever. I try to restart and nothing (engine cranks fine, just no sign of trying to fire). Check the primary and secondary filters and have plenty of fuel. We crack open an injector line and nothing, not a drop of fuel going to the injector. Any thoughts as this seem to happen while "at speed" ?

P.S. I looked through some links and found one that kind of dead ended with no resolution.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Pull the plug in the center of the hydraulic head. Put a plastic straw or wooden dowel in the hole. Turn on power and try to start truck. The straw/dowel should move up and down. If it doesn't that is why your truck won't run. Post up what you find.

 

[gem1410]

Gimpyrobb--thanks for getting my pump to work--i looked at it for two years on and off--george meehan

 

[gimpyrobb]

No problem at all, glad to help.

 

[Floridianson]

I would start with the simple. 5-7 lbs pressure at finial filters with intank running. Remove shut down cable cover and feel for free movement and returning from forward pisition the fuel control rod. Then check center plug as Chris said. Get back when this is done as we got plenty for you to check.

 

[gimpyrobb]

I think he can skip the shutdown cable. He said the truck was running, then stopped, nowit won't start. I'm betting it seized the HH plunger.

 

[rlwm211]

I tend to get preachy when I speak about this but forgive me for going through this again. I also ask that I be pardoned if this has been tried.

The new fuel is Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel and in the process of removing the sulfur they also destroy the lubricating properties of the fuel. So much so that they had to add lubricants because the initial marketing of ULSD caused IP failures on several vehicles.

Knowing how the gubmint thinks and also how vendors always try to pinch pennies, I am pretty sure that the amount of lube they add to the fuel is a minimum amount that works on the contemporary design IPs but for our older DINOSAUR designs we are not getting enough lube in the IP and fuel system in general to keep things working properly.

There have been several studies done by people way smarter than any of us, or at least most any of us, who have determined different ways to improve the lubricity of fuel to make the current pump offerings more palatable to our ancient diesels. Here is a link to one such study,
Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place

I have also found this study in a PDF form and to the moderator's who may peruse this thread we ought to have that posted somewhere on this site.

In any event if you are not feeding your deuce some form of lubricity additive you are simply asking for a problem in your IP or HH area. For many who only drive a few miles a year this seems a fool[s errand as they see no issue with the ULSD. I drive my deuce 3500 miles a year and am very in tune with how the engine is performing and how it reacts to different fuel mixes. I personally use 2 stroke Outboard motor oil and Power service additive in my fuel. There are specific reasons that I have for doing this. Without getting into a lot of detail, the outboard oil additive is the most compatible with the environment of the Multifuel engine and offers the most lubrication quality. Other oils can leave deposits in the combustion chambers and valves and do not lube the fuel as well.

WMO is a lube but in the study you will find it is not as effective as an additive and is more useful as a fuel in and of itself.

In the case of this truck that has died in operation, it may be too late for your injector pump, and I will leave the diagnosis and repair to more experienced hands who have been inside that system.

In the future make sure you add some sort of lubrication to your fuel to make the current pump offering more acceptable to your truck.

If the original poster has done this, you have my apologies for droning on and on and I hope your problem is fixed easily cheaply and quickly....

Just my two cents

RL

 

[Tinwoodsman]

What specific type of outboard motor oil would you recommend and at what ratio? Also, by outboard motor oil I assume you mean two cycle oil.

 

[rlwm211]

I use a two cycle outboard oil that meets the TCW3 specs and use a quart to about 20 gallons. The TCW3 specs are the current specs for the outboard marine industry.

If you do some searching on the differences in the oils, you will find that the aircooled 2 stroke oils do not have the high viscosity that the marine 2 stroke oil does and also that the marine 2 stroke oil is designed to lubricate parts that are held at a constant temperature whereas the air cooled oil is not as thick and is designed for bursts of power usage followed by periods of light use, as opposed to the constant demand for power, and there fore lubricatoin that the marine outboard environment calls for as well as the deuce. The example given is that a marine outboard runs at a pretty steady rpm for hours if necessary then is shut down at the end of a run.

That this oil provides lubrication is pointed out in the article and I am sure that some of it is due to the formulation of the 2 stroke oil which includes highly volatile additives to improve the distribution of the opil additive in the fuel. I tried using straight motor oil and found it just does not seem to lube the IP system as well.

When my deuce is running happily, it is as smooth as a sewing machine with not noises other than what you would expect. When I am not running the 2 stroke marine oil, I hear more noise from the injector pump and injection system which manifests itself as a change in the rhythym and the addition of some diesel rattle that really should be there. I have owned and operated truck diesels over the years and up until the new ULSD came along this was never an issue.

I trust the information that others have gathered on the ULSD issue and when I read that IP systems failed due to a lack of lubricant in the fuel my alarms went off regarding our older mechanical injector systems.

I urge everyone who is concerned with this to do some simple searches and find out for themselves what is at stake. This also varies somewhat as to which state you are in and whether they have implemented ULSD as of yet. Here in the communist state of New York, we are of course following the every move of the People's Republc of California who have already adopted these standards.

RL


RL

 

[WS2811]

I tried to get to HH and see if its doing what it should, but one of the injector lines runs right over the top of the bolt, so, with the rain getting harder and my needing to be other places today, I guess I'll try again tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Thats the best place to start. A socket on a long extension works good for me, have you tried an ext?

 

[WS2811]

I got a quick break in the rain. I has to loosen #5 injector line, took the bolt out. Good news? it bounced up and down and fuel came out of the hole. any further thoughts or do I start chasing a fuel blockage problem.
Attached are pictures to confirm i'm in the right spot.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Yup, thats the right spot. Sounds like everything did what it is supposed to do. Next up, pull the cover off the engine kill. We know fuel is getting to the head as you said fuel poured out the plug when you turned it over. Anyway, the fuel shut off rod sometimes gets stuck. When you pull the 2 bolts/screws from the plate on the side of the IP below the HH, set it to the side. No need to remove the cable attached to it. Under that cover you will see a lever. that lever needs to move back and forth freely. At rest it should be in the 7:00 position. YOu should be able to push it toward the firewall and it should spring back on its own(7:00 position).

It gets bad from here out, lets hope this is it.

 

[gimpyrobb]

This cover...

 

[kipman]

What that thing do?

 

[gimpyrobb]

And don't let Kip help you, he gets confused easily.

 

[kipman]

Gimp slipped me a mickey.

 

[WS2811]

We pulled the cover off and that thingy doesn't move. it is stuck in the 5:00 position, toward firewall.Before I man handle and break something, is there a preferred/recommended way to loosen this up? WD-40 or PB Blaster maybe, I,m sorry, I should say penetrating oil to avoid the brand loyalty debate. Should we be concerned with the black slimy substance that was in the cover or that also just 40 years of accumlated goo? Thanks again for the info.

 

[hdexpert]

Your choice of penetrating oils should do just fine. Spray some in there, work it back and forth until the lever easily moves between 3:30 and 7:00. When you're done you should be able to push it towards the firewall and have it move back to the 7:00 position on it's own.

 

[91W350]

This is a great thread, even though it is not my truck in question, I appreciate the diagnostic steps. Thanks for taking time to do this. Glen