Insane home Water/meth injection...

[Csm Davis]

What would be a minimum pressure for it to atomize?

 

[Kohburn]

if you plan to run alchohal you also have to consider material compatabilty like an e85 compatible high pressure fuel pump

a walbro high pressure pump could possibly handle it

http://treperformance.com/files/TRE345Flow.jpg

http://www.mkiv.com/techarticles/fuel_pumps_test_2/flowtests-walbro2.gif

 

[Heath_h49008]

For these nozzles? About 50-80psi I would suspect. It would require experimentation.

Keep in mind, you SUBTRACT the boost pressure from the Pump pressure to find your injection pressure.

If your pump only puts out 10 psi, for example, the pressure in the intake at 11psi boost would actually push the water backwards out of the intake.

 

[Heath_h49008]

if you plan to run alchohal you also have to consider material compatabilty like an e85 compatible high pressure fuel pump

a walbro high pressure pump could possibly handle it

http://treperformance.com/files/TRE345Flow.jpg

If you run methanol/ethanol in a multifuel you might need to make sure you have a new engine and a crane at the same time.

Meth injection in multifuel = boom.

We already covered this and explained why it happens. Same goes for propane.

 

[Kohburn]

I'm glad you already covered that in the last 13 pages of information. Doesn't change my statement to always be away of material compatability.

 

[PsycoBob]

As mentioned earlier in this thread, any kind of ethanol/methanol in the intake of a (hot?) multifuel makes for nasty engine knock. Pure water or very low (1%) methanol only.

Pressure's a big challenge, even with the soda kegs- My truck runs around 85-95 PSI and the pepsi-style kegs have a spring-loaded pressure relief. Great for decompressing to open the pressure-sealed lid, not so awesome if the truck's compressor is running a little high. Took a bit of tweaking to keep the compressor's shutoff pressure under the lid's safety relief setting. Given my tank's current location, I tended to get a wet armpit, or a brief ssss-pop-ssss when the compressor topped out.

CSM Davis, the McMaster-Carr page lists 40psi as the lowest rated flow- I suspect that'd be about the lowest atomization setting, or thereabouts. You'd need a 55+PSI pump that'd actually make that pressure constantly under load. You'd also need to upsize quite a lot on nozzle size- I'm getting around 75psi across the nozzle when under boost. If you're really worried about that tank being safe, you can always stash it in the bed. The only downsides to relocating are longer hoses & the lack of a 'hand gauge.' Cold water, warm hand- makes it easy to tell by feel if the tank's low.

One of my cohorts got a tank like this for his M109's sink water supply. Pressure with hand pump or truck air. With a spare quick-connect nothing stops you from using one of these tanks for a portable air tank, either.

 

[PsycoBob]

Kohburn, that last line sounded like something I said yesterday about my fuel system. This spring I'm replacing every rubber/copper/nylon line I've got with Biodiesel rated bits. I suddenly got nervous about the little rubber line in the tank, the old copper hard-lines & the unknown (nylon?) high-pressure lines after the boost pump. At least I know the little rubber line to the boost pump is Viton lined, as I replaced it earlier this year.

Fun fact- B20 made my WMO get DARKER with the crap it cleaned out of my fuel system. Ye gods.

 

[Kohburn]

interesting fun fact there Bob

 

[PsycoBob]

I'm not sure when the last rebuild was, but I think my engine's dataplate is dated '89. The copper lines on the frame, steel injector lines & tank may not have been this well cleaned in 20+ years. Fuel used to look like dark tea, lightened up considerably after adding the B20, then got darker every time I checked it.

Engine makes more boost & higher egt's after letting it clean things, too. Initially, egt dropped slightly with B20, as expected with my FDC bypassed. Once I have more WMO cleaned, I'll swap out what's in the tank for straight WMO & see if I get normal boost/egt numbers again, or if the bonus was from cleaning. If so, the new 'crappy performance' fix will be replace filters, add biodiesel, replace filters.

 

[Heath_h49008]

I'm curious what your EGTs would be on straight diesel.

 

[mark salanco]

So is anybody using water injection?

 

[Heath_h49008]

I know of one running this system, and several others running commercial water injection rigs.

 

[Dieselking22]

Heath are the systems working good?

 

[Heath_h49008]

As designed from the initial test data.

Keep in mind that alternative fuels and cranking the smoke screw will vary the needs for your truck. Also, the flow will be determined by the system pressure.

We have also determined that EGT is the best way to trigger the system. Boost triggering wastes water.

No methanol also means you can't run it in the winter in most of the country without draining it every time the truck will freeze. (or running a bottle warmer, of course.)

 

[PsycoBob]

Define "Working Good."

Aside from random leaks caused by fittings that needed tightening, I've not had any malfunctions. I'd like to add a few pressure switches to add an indicator light circuit to show that the system's got electrical power & pressure to the solenoid.

"Working Good" as far as performance, well... A 10gph nozzle & 80psi of pressure helps a lot by dropping egt's around 100-150F. Gives more headroom for more power. If you combined this with a servo-driven version of that manual FDC-wedge mod, you could use the 'alarm' output on the EGT controller to turn down the fuel rate a touch when something changes (denser fuel, out of water, etc) to get max safe HP from your engine.

Of course, adding junk makes more stuff to break. I'll buy a 15/20gph nozzle come summer & see if it makes a noteworthy temp drop. Much as I'd like to see more power, I'm using 2/3 as much water as fuel. Adding an electronic temp controller instead of boost switch should help, but it'd suck to need a water tank almost as big as the fuel tank.

I need to add a winter air-purge option to this thing. It'd make it easier to use the system without worrying about trying to clear the water out before shutdown. Probably something like a pair of keg posts to couple air/water lines together & a pushbutton to trip the solenoid during turbo-cooldown. Pulling the keg isn't that hard, but I'd rather not have the solenoid or nozzle develop ice-damage.

A friend of mine was interested in a system like this as a temporary addon, to try cleaning out accumulated carbon from running WMO. Takes only a few minutes to install, with a simple ball valve on the water line & a hose from the in-cab air fitting. Adding a solenoid & controller would upgrade to a full kit, providing that the truck already has an EGT probe installed.

 

[Heath_h49008]

You have a blow out option. Drain the tank and jump the switch to manually push the truck air through it. Or, you could put some RV antifreeze in the tank and hit the button with the nozzle unhooked.

I think triggering by egt is going to solve the water usage issues.

Edit: I just got what you meant by "blow out".... I like it! a second solenoid and a tube to the slobber line to clear the system every run during shutdown. I was thinking winterization.

 

[PsycoBob]

Actually, I had meant winterization between runs. Once the engine's warm, I see no problem with introducing water into the lines or nozzle. The solenoid is safely inside the cab & tends to be self-heating during use. If I install my tanks in the M109's box, I can put them in a box with some insulation to keep them happy. Draining or removing them if I'm not going to be driving again that day is easy enough, but purging the lines may take some more work.

Interestingly enough, RV antifreeze is Propylene glycol, non-combustible & won't cause the nasty pre-ignition issues methanol causes in an injection system. Of course, it also gets slushy near the freeze point & costs $5/gal. Should work well for winterization a few cups at a shot, but I'd cringe at for normal injection. Heat of vaporiazation is 393Btu/Lb, H2O is 970.4Btu/Lb. Note that Ethylene Glycol (normal engine antifreeze) IS combustible & might cause problems. It also might not- I'm not about to check & it costs even more than the RV stuff.

I may just dump some RV antifreeze into one tank & label it as such- that & a pushbutton to activate the solenoid will let me clean the H2O out.

 

[mark salanco]

I just ordered a water injection kit for my M35a2, I found some 24 volt in tank water heater elements on line. I was thinking I could put one in a water tank and insulate the tank, there 600 watt elements. I'm thinking if the tank is well insulated, it won't take a lot to keep it warm. Could also run the lines close to the engine and let the engine heat keep them warm. Could also keep the pump close to the water tank to keep that from freezing too. Just a thought .

 

[Dieselking22]

Tell us how well it works, results.

 

[mark salanco]

I'll post my results, right now I'm running about 13 lbs of boost and the EGT's will go to 1250 pretty easy when pulling a hill hard. Shooting for about 20lbs boost and 1,100 EGT. I don't have the water injection installed yet.