Insane home Water/meth injection...

[w3azel]

I got 10mpg interstate. Bobbed truck, 14.00 tires, 13,400lb truck, lock-out on front axle 55mph from NC to MO.

 

[PyroJoe]

Well I sure hope I didn't mess everything up by swapping the D turbo for the C turbo last week. Haven't really driven it since then. The truck is a 1969 M35A2 without winch. 5 speed Spicer 3053a with overdrive. Lever/manual shifted t-case. Air engaged front axle. Standard drive-flange hubs. Standard 9.00R20 tires. Everything's standard.... Oh, well I was only driving 45 - 50 because that's as far as the gas pedal goes.... Not like you drive these things to get somewhere quick. Found out the cruise control can get it up to 62mph.

Back to meth-injection. I'd check out Schaben-Industries. They're just north of me in Columbus, NE. They make sprayers; I have one on my four wheeler.

On the aftermarket intake manifold note, I came up with nothing after my search. Can't I just cap off the coolant lines that go to the intake manifold? It's not that hard to make one. The key to meth injection on my OM617 is having long runners between the inlet and the head. That gives the meth/water time to fully atomize before reaching the valves. From what I've read, you want to inject post-intercooler. They claim that pre-intercooler will cause condensation. I'm not buying this, but that's what some websites claim.

It should also probably be noted that when doing a quick search after buying my first deuce, a lot of threads and websites say something like "the deuce is slow to accelerate but has gobs of toruqe. Slap some 11.00R20's on it to bring your speed up, turn up the fuel, and add meth-injection to keep your egt's down." Those sites apparently don't know that meth doesn't work with these engines. I wonder if the fuel density compensator affects the pre-detonation with meth injection? Have people tried it with and without the FDC?

Edit** And of course as soon as a I say Schaben, I look them up and they use Shurflo pumps....

 

[w3azel]

I need to go through a system trace on these engine to see if you can just cap the coolant lines. Those might be necessary for coolant flow, also these engines don't have an aftercooler so the intake air might be cooled by the coolant flowing around it. As far as the FDC, it does not go off of engine performance, it only adjusts off of the fuel density flowing through it. It has no idea what is being injected into the intake of the engine. Another issue is these trucks do not have a cruise control so I hope your not reffering to the hand throttle control as a cruise control.

 

[welldigger]

62mph? What's your ram's at that speed with 9.00-20 tires?

Since the exhaust and intake manifolds are intertwined the coolant flowing through the intake cools the intake air. I can't say for sure but I don't think you would gain much by blocking off coolant flow to the intake manifold.

 

[PyroJoe]

I need to go through a system trace on these engine to see if you can just cap the coolant lines. Those might be necessary for coolant flow, also these engines don't have an aftercooler so the intake air might be cooled by the coolant flowing around it. As far as the FDC, it does not go off of engine performance, it only adjusts off of the fuel density flowing through it. It has no idea what is being injected into the intake of the engine. Another issue is these trucks do not have a cruise control so I hope your not reffering to the hand throttle control as a cruise control.

Well if you're going to be picky, yes I mean "hand throttle." Technically it's a diesel pedal and not a gas pedal, too, lol. I know what the FDC does. I'm asking if anyone's tried meth both ways. Obviously it doesn't know what's in the intake manifold. That's the problem. Maybe the key is to disable the FDC and adjust your timing manually for the meth. That's what I had to do on my OM617. I know nothing about adjusting timing on an LTD-465, though.

@welldigger - RPM's are about 2600-2700. Hard to tell when the tach is moving like a windshield wiper. Haven't turned up the throttle stop yet. My other deuce is turned up to allow for 3200 RPM so it can get up to 75mph. The reason an intercooler doesn't work on these trucks very well is because of the coolant in the intake manifold. It's going to heat the air back up. I want to block coolant from the intake manifold and run an intercooler. You don't have to add water every 2 hours of driving, and egt's would drop significantly.

 

[welldigger]

Man you have that multi screaming. Best of luck with that.

 

[PyroJoe]

Man you have that multi screaming. Best of luck with that.

Screaming's an understatement. But, diesel's are most efficient at full load; that doesn't mean they get the best mpg, that means they are converting fuel into useable work the best. That concept may be hard for you to wrap your head around, but you can google it if you want. The cummins are rated for 3200 RPM, and any 4-stroke diesel engine, when held at a constant RPM, will last indefinitely. Fluctuation of engine speed is what kills.

 

[welldigger]

Screaming's an understatement. But, diesel's are most efficient at full load; that doesn't mean they get the best mpg, that means they are converting fuel into useable work the best. That concept may be hard for you to wrap your head around, but you can google it if you want. The cummins are rated for 3200 RPM, and any 4-stroke diesel engine, when held at a constant RPM, will last indefinitely. Fluctuation of engine speed is what kills.

Wow bro. I'm fully aware of what a cummins can handle. Your not the first person to come to this forum with wild dreams of making a multifuel a power house and in the end they either never succeed or if they do all of their efforts gained marginal benefits.

It's your truck and your engine so you do with it as you please. I won't tell you not to. If you do succeed that's awesome. You genuinely broke new ground.

 

[PyroJoe]

Your not the first person to come to this forum with wild dreams of making a multifuel a power house

I'm not one with wild dreams of making a multifuel a power house period. I have a 600hp Duramax for my power cravings. Just doing what the OP was doing when he started this thread. Trying to reduce EGT's and convert black smoke to useable energy.

 

[welldigger]

I'm not one with wild dreams of making a multifuel a power house period. I have a 600hp Duramax for my power cravings. Just doing what the OP was doing when he started this thread. Trying to reduce EGT's and convert black smoke to useable energy.

Ok I get that. I also understand what the intended idea behind deleting the water flow around the intake is. Here's the point I was making. If your worried about intake air getting warmed up by 180 degree water then how is it going to be better if you expose the intake air to 1200+ degree exhaust heat?

The intake manifold is intertwined with the exhaust manifold. So the water not only cools the air charge it also insulates it from the exhaust heat.

I'm not trying to call you out or anything but I'm just trying to help you understand how this engine was set up. They did it this way to keep cylinder temperatures up in artic weather. The last thing they were worried about was aftermarket performance when they designed this engine.

 

[w3azel]

Also your not getting that much temp affect from the water jacket on the intake manifold. Large coolant aftercoolers usually only take about 80* at 20psi boost out of the intake air temp when used in a shell fin design. I would be suprised if deuces water jacket design did 20* difference. Also the air temp coming out of the turbo is going to range but itll cross above 180* roughly 50 some degrees ambient and 10psi of boost. 20psi and 100* your getting to 300* on your intake air temp. That's when an intercooler would help but again its not going to give huge results when its 100* outside. The over all objective of any of these performance mods with intake is increase air volume so you can increase fuel volume and not exceed exahust temps that will destroy your turbo.

All these calculations are rough and I did do some estimates. Don't feel like digging out the calculator and school book I learned all my calculations in.

The point on the hand throttle is its not meant to be a cruise control. Its a safety issue and the TM even says not to use it as a cruise control. The engine RPMs your running are crazy as well. My truck hates 2500 I can't imagine running her any faster. In the end its your truck and the only issue I had was the hand throttle beause of safety.

Also fuel timing is done by the gear off the front of the fuel pump. Can it be adjusted farther into the fuel pump I do not know, i haven't torn one open.

 

[TXFirefighter]

For the tank you could use 4 inch pvc with some fittings tapped into a hard cap. It would hold the pressure, and you could make it any size you want.

4" isn't rated for that pressure UNLESS you buy the heavy wall stuff.
Up to 2 1/2" std schedule 40 will work at that pressure but limit the volume.

I think the air brake tank would do best but you better coat the inside with something to prevent the rust from forming and building up. That would clog nozzles and kill you system.

 

[Jeepsinker]

None of it really matters when a rod comes out the side of the block.

 

[patracy]

I'm not one with wild dreams of making a multifuel a power house period. I have a 600hp Duramax for my power cravings. Just doing what the OP was doing when he started this thread. Trying to reduce EGT's and convert black smoke to useable energy.

Depending on your truck and how you're coming up with that number (crank vs rear wheel), that's nothing more than bolt ons for 600hp crank power.

I had a VP44'ed 24v cummins that put down 498rwhp. Crank would be near 600. And to do that, I had studs, valve springs, injectors, turbo, exhaust, intake, fuel system upgrades, bla bla bla....

Spinning a multifuel up to 3200rpm is dancing with the devil. These engines were really designed for 2400rpm. And they never balanced these engines.

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying that there's a LOT more involved in it than just tossing more fuel, air, and meth to make power like you would with a modern diesel.

I'm not a expert. But I've thought this over before and posted it in the past. To build a multifuel that makes a sustained 250+ hp you'd need the following:

Balanced bottom end, rods peened, upgraded rod and main fasteners, main girdled.
Shaved pistons to drop a CR point or two.
Gapped rings.
Worked heads with springs, also fire ring'ed.
Better studs with a MLS style gasket.
Custom grind on the cam, figure out a upgraded pushrod to swap to.
Custom intake manifold to remove the coolant flowing around the intake runners.
Two port LDS injectors that have been EDM'd to a larger opening along with adjusting pop-off pressure.
Modern turbo with a better map suited to the CFM you get the heads to flow. Intercooler would also be worthwhile.
Conversion to a spin on oil filter setup.
Radiator upgrade.
LDS pump would also be a worthwhile addition.

I'm pretty certain everything I've outlined could make a safe 250-300hp multifuel. The problem is the cost. Just thinking it over, you'd have $6K at least in a setup like that. (Lots of cost in machine work and fasteners, as there's no shop setup or has done any machine work I've mentioned and no off the shelf upgrade fasteners.)

It'd be cheaper and just about as effective to get a p-pumped 5.9 12v cummins and swap. While you couldn't get away with the high oil concentrations some run in them. You could easily still run WMO/WVO blends with the p-pump. You'd also be able to rev much higher and get 300hp out of it just tinkering with the pump and a set of injectors.

I've got two multifuel trucks here. And a spare engine laying around. While it'd be an interesting experiment, the end doesn't justify the means to me. So I just live with what the multifuels are. I just turn them up a little and drive by my gauges and enjoy what they are.

 

[Loco_Hosa]

Depending on your truck and how you're coming up with that number (crank vs rear wheel), that's nothing more than bolt ons for 600hp crank power.

I had a VP44'ed 24v cummins that put down 498rwhp. Crank would be near 600. And to do that, I had studs, valve springs, injectors, turbo, exhaust, intake, fuel system upgrades, bla bla bla....

Spinning a multifuel up to 3200rpm is dancing with the devil. These engines were really designed for 2400rpm. And they never balanced these engines.

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying that there's a LOT more involved in it than just tossing more fuel, air, and meth to make power like you would with a modern diesel.

I'm not a expert. But I've thought this over before and posted it in the past. To build a multifuel that makes a sustained 250+ hp you'd need the following:

Balanced bottom end, rods peened, upgraded rod and main fasteners, main girdled.
Shaved pistons to drop a CR point or two.
Gapped rings.
Worked heads with springs, also fire ring'ed.
Better studs with a MLS style gasket.
Custom grind on the cam, figure out a upgraded pushrod to swap to.
Custom intake manifold to remove the coolant flowing around the intake runners.
Two port LDS injectors that have been EDM'd to a larger opening along with adjusting pop-off pressure.
Modern turbo with a better map suited to the CFM you get the heads to flow. Intercooler would also be worthwhile.
Conversion to a spin on oil filter setup.
Radiator upgrade.
LDS pump would also be a worthwhile addition.

I'm pretty certain everything I've outlined could make a safe 250-300hp multifuel. The problem is the cost. Just thinking it over, you'd have $6K at least in a setup like that. (Lots of cost in machine work and fasteners, as there's no shop setup or has done any machine work I've mentioned and no off the shelf upgrade fasteners.)

It'd be cheaper and just about as effective to get a p-pumped 5.9 12v cummins and swap. While you couldn't get away with the high oil concentrations some run in them. You could easily still run WMO/WVO blends with the p-pump. You'd also be able to rev much higher and get 300hp out of it just tinkering with the pump and a set of injectors.

I've got two multifuel trucks here. And a spare engine laying around. While it'd be an interesting experiment, the end doesn't justify the means to me. So I just live with what the multifuels are. I just turn them up a little and drive by my gauges and enjoy what they are.

Your absolutely right, but by the time you've done it, the engine wouldn't respond well to multifuel use anymore, and would still be overly big and heavy. If you have the need for speed and dont care from multifuel capable, a 6bt will make you VERY happy.

 

[rustystud]

Your absolutely right, but by the time you've done it, the engine wouldn't respond well to multifuel use anymore, and would still be overly big and heavy. If you have the need for speed and dont care from multifuel capable, a 6bt will make you VERY happy.

Actually the multifuel ability comes from the head design and piston cup. You can see in the bottom picture the unique design of the intake runner. It causes the air to swirl helping mix the fuel with air for better combustion.

 

[patracy]

The only thing I mentioned that would affect it would be shaving the pistons to lower the CR from 22:1 to about 20:1. Alternatively the same could be achieved in a custom thicker HG. Running gasoline and such might be affected. But waste oils wouldn't. The upswing would be the ability to run higher boost levels.

 

[brianp454]

Rock on PryoJoe! Any chance you can make a video of your truck running these RPMs? You're way outside of what's generally considered to be acceptable on this site. Yet, you may be onto something, and I would love to hear what you have to say.

I'd have to take a good look at the intake with the coolant loop to answer this also. It brings up an interesting question that I've never heard posted. You are entirely correct that an intercooler will not work (so to speak) well as the intake is heated by coolant, thus heated. I'm curious what would happen if the engine was modified to allow the coolant to flow through warmup, yet bypass (so that it doesn't change the system in any other way) afterwards. I'm wondering what this could do to lower EGT's when running the engine hard on free ways going up grades. FYI, here in the pacific NW it's hard to go anywhere without going up or down grades, so it's not like being on flat ground for extended time periods. It would be interesting to study this.

Well if you're going to be picky, yes I mean "hand throttle." Technically it's a diesel pedal and not a gas pedal, too, lol. I know what the FDC does. I'm asking if anyone's tried meth both ways. Obviously it doesn't know what's in the intake manifold. That's the problem. Maybe the key is to disable the FDC and adjust your timing manually for the meth. That's what I had to do on my OM617. I know nothing about adjusting timing on an LTD-465, though.

@welldigger - RPM's are about 2600-2700. Hard to tell when the tach is moving like a windshield wiper. Haven't turned up the throttle stop yet. My other deuce is turned up to allow for 3200 RPM so it can get up to 75mph. The reason an intercooler doesn't work on these trucks very well is because of the coolant in the intake manifold. It's going to heat the air back up. I want to block coolant from the intake manifold and run an intercooler. You don't have to add water every 2 hours of driving, and egt's would drop significantly.

 

[rustystud]

The only thing I mentioned that would affect it would be shaving the pistons to lower the CR from 22:1 to about 20:1. Alternatively the same could be achieved in a custom thicker HG. Running gasoline and such might be affected. But waste oils wouldn't. The upswing would be the ability to run higher boost levels.

Actually patracy they did make a 20:1 compression multifuel engine. So having the pistons shaved would not effect the engines ability to burn all that oil anyway.

 

[Keith_J]

Oh... and thanks for the pump tip! I just picked up this http://www.pumpagents.com/pdf/ShurfloPumps/8000-853-238.pdf

That is similar to what I use for my greenhouse misting system, used to humidify incoming air without wasting water. For the pressure tank, I used a water heater expansion tank, a bladder style similar to a well pressure tank but much smaller. $50 from home improvement stores. Adjustable air charge too. Uses 3/4 inch female pipe thread.

the pump cycles on for 20 seconds every two minutes to provide 4 gallons per hour of water to the mist nozzles at 60 psi