Intake/exhaust port CFM flow? Porting the heads? Tech babble.

[wdbtchr]

I can kinda follow the math, it's been a long time since school days and my brain is a lot older/slower. That last post went way over my head. It occurs to me the reason the military put turbochargers on these engines is because it's easier/cheaper to pump the air in than to port/polish to get more air to eat the smoke. I'm happy with my stock LDS 465a1. Not that I'm opposed to port and polish my '68 Camaro has been done including matching the exhaust ports to the Hooker tuned headers. It can pass anything but a gas station.

 

[61sleepercab]

I would not reinvent the wheel and study what the diesel tractor pullers are doing as far as head prep and turbocharging. One puller I heard of was at the extreme and was running 65 psi boost with 4 turbos and having trouble keeping heads on the block. Is the Extrude hone process of porting and polishing heads and intakes still in business?
I read a article that a stock intake on a gas motor picked up 30hp when it was Extrude honed. Mark

 

[Docluvstrucks]

Is the Extrude hone process of porting and polishing heads and intakes still in business?
I read a article that a stock intake on a gas motor picked up 30hp when it was Extrude honed. Mark

Looks like it http://www.extrudehoneafm.com/

Originally designed for use on spacecraft from what I read.

 

[brianp454]

Interesting thread merlot566jka, thanks!

 

[Docluvstrucks]

Crickets Crickets Crickets

 

[w3azel]

I know seriously, all these great minds and huge truck collections and no one will send some heads off to get a flow test and then ported or honed. If you guys want to buy my M36. Ill use the money to do just that. 10k cash

 

[Docluvstrucks]

I know seriously, all these great minds and huge truck collections and no one will send some heads off to get a flow test and then ported or honed. If you guys want to buy my M36. Ill use the money to do just that. 10k cash

Right, I'm eyeballing heads on e gay to do just that. $$$$$ Permitting. Why not?

Pros / Cons? Anyone?

 

[wreckerman893]

Right, I'm eyeballing heads on e gay to do just that. $$$$$ Permitting. Why not?

Pros / Cons? Anyone?

Because you can't gold plate a turd (well you can but then you just have an expensive turd).

I've owned a lot of deuces and they are all power deficient and even when you do bump up the power you run into other issues. Plus the engine is in a vehicle with the aerodynamics of a concrete block.
That being said it's your dog and you can whip it if you want to.

 

[Docluvstrucks]

Because you can't gold plate a turd (well you can but then you just have an expensive turd).

I've owned a lot of deuces and they are all power deficient and even when you do bump up the power you run into other issues. Plus the engine is in a vehicle with the aerodynamics of a concrete block.
That being said it's your dog and you can whip it if you want to.

But you can polish a turd

http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/videos/polishing-a-turd-minimyth.htm

 

[jwaller]

I have access to a flow bench if someone has a spare head to send me, I also have water injected the multi fuel and it did way more for power then a bigger turbo did. That's where I'd spend my money.

 

[w3azel]

ATPTach has two blown engines, you might want to hit him up to see if he wants to sell you some heads. I would, but dumping 3k in one month to finish my truck up is enough to swallow. My turd is already getting a nice polishing. Why not add a little under the hood?

 

[rustystud]

I think spending money on a cam would be more beneficial. I'm also wondering if you can get roller lifters for these beasts. New cam, roller lifters, that should go along way in making more power and reliability .

 

[Docluvstrucks]

I think spending money on a cam would be more beneficial. I'm also wondering if you can get roller lifters for these beasts. New cam, roller lifters, that should go along way in making more power and reliability .

To me porting/polishing/extrudehone would be a modest "refinement" of the engine but I am no engine builder so when I hear cam or changing cam profiles seems like pretty advanced stuff to me. I could swap a head out and or drop in roller lifters no problem though.

As for the cam. What would changing cam profiles do the the multifuel capability? I personaly want to keep the engine multifuel. If changing the cam profile can improve the horsepower and efficiency of the engine without doing anything to the multifuel I'd be for it.

 

[w3azel]

Cam modification in a gas engine thing. From what I've done in diesel modification your money is better spent in a better turbo and fuel mods. The multifuel is a strange beast because it's a diesel with a twist. Even though there are thousands out there in circulation to many belong to truest who won't tinker on the engine. I on the other hand see a market for improvement and performance. I've had a 12 valve and a 6.4 that had more power then I knew what to do with(well besides smoke the local mustangs). Im not asking for a multifuel to do 1/4 mile times. I just want a the big awesome truck I own to accelerate with traffic and go up a hill without downshifting. From all my reading the downside to the multifuel is heat, exhaust temps climb way to high to fast. There is the suspected rod bolt failure but that not because of power, more of over revving. So my focus is towards keeping those temps down while increasing performance. Be it better breathing engine from better heads, a better turbo (matched to head flow), or injection modification. These truest are getting on my nerves sometimes with this leave things alone and its just a turd thing. It's not your money its not your truck. You own one that's slow that's fine but I'm determined to make mine faster better and stronger then yours. Why? Cause I'm a real tinkerer and nothing is good enough to me. Give me 2 weeks and Ill have a set of heads to check so hit me up on a price or if you want to check the flow at least an address. By then the M35 will be out of the way and I can park my m36 at the house.

 

[Docluvstrucks]

Be it better breathing engine from better heads, a better turbo (matched to head flow), or injection modification.

Maybe it has been covered in another thread or maybe one of the factory turbo's are already the variable pitch kind but what about a Variable Nozzel Turbo (VNT)? Blades pitch more at lower RPM's to produce more boost. Waiting for the turbo to spool takes less time at those lower RPM's. I put one on my Rover Defender 110 diesel and it definitely improved the bottom end and cruising response.

The VNT coupled with optimized head flow and dynamic balancing seems like a winning combination.

Again, these refinements seem very modest to me. In fact they are really just attention to detail the factory had no time or budget to do. Not some radical modification.

Just a thought

 

[brianp454]

You bring up some interesting points!

This engine (and the turbos) were designed and manufactured long before variable turbo technology became available. My understanding is that the turbos for both LDT and LDS engines were a mix of 3 and 4 inch (the 3's are really just a bit smaller than the 4's) with at least the 3's being on LDT versions. FYI, the TM for the 4 versions is available on JATonka's site. Many of the 4's included a waste gate that interfered with the starter, so they moved it to the other side. Perhaps they only used 4's on LDS engines because the starter was out of the way, while the 3 or 4 would fit on that engine. The 3 would only fit on the LDT if the waste gate interference was the issue. Anyway, I would think the 3 may spool a bit faster and the 4 have better breathing at the higher end of load and RPM. The variable turbo should have the best of both worlds. The question is: Is the marginal improvement worth the marginal benefit?

In general, turbosupercharging reduces the need to eliminate restrictions the way they do with normally aspirated engines. Given that the general size of the intake and exhaust are in line with engines with more power, I doubt porting would help much except to lower EGT's a tad. It would be fun to find out!

Maybe it has been covered in another thread or maybe one of the factory turbo's are already the variable pitch kind but what about a Variable Nozzel Turbo (VNT)? Blades pitch more at lower RPM's to produce more boost. Waiting for the turbo to spool takes less time at those lower RPM's. I put one on my Rover Defender 110 diesel and it definitely improved the bottom end and cruising response.

The VNT coupled with optimized head flow and dynamic balancing seems like a winning combination.

Again, these refinements seem very modest to me. In fact they are really just attention to detail the factory had no time or budget to do. Not some radical modification.

Just a thought

 

[rustystud]

Cam modification in a gas engine thing. From what I've done in diesel modification your money is better spent in a better turbo and fuel mods. The multifuel is a strange beast because it's a diesel with a twist. Even though there are thousands out there in circulation to many belong to truest who won't tinker on the engine. I on the other hand see a market for improvement and performance. I've had a 12 valve and a 6.4 that had more power then I knew what to do with(well besides smoke the local mustangs). Im not asking for a multifuel to do 1/4 mile times. I just want a the big awesome truck I own to accelerate with traffic and go up a hill without downshifting. From all my reading the downside to the multifuel is heat, exhaust temps climb way to high to fast. There is the suspected rod bolt failure but that not because of power, more of over revving. So my focus is towards keeping those temps down while increasing performance. Be it better breathing engine from better heads, a better turbo (matched to head flow), or injection modification. These truest are getting on my nerves sometimes with this leave things alone and its just a turd thing. It's not your money its not your truck. You own one that's slow that's fine but I'm determined to make mine faster better and stronger then yours. Why? Cause I'm a real tinkerer and nothing is good enough to me. Give me 2 weeks and Ill have a set of heads to check so hit me up on a price or if you want to check the flow at least an address. By then the M35 will be out of the way and I can park my m36 at the house.

Wrong, cam engineering can help any engine. As a diesel mechanic I have seen massive improvement from "IHC" (Ford Engines), "Cummins", and even "Cat" over the years. There is even a difference between the "LDS 456-1 " and the "LD 465-1 " in cam opening. As far as increasing the durability by going with roller cams that just makes sense. All major diesel manufacturers use roller cams now, there is a reason for that. As far as porting the heads go, you will need to be careful as the multifuel design depends on the intake runner to help swirl the fuel. I have added the pages referencing this.
I think the oil system could also use an upgrade, helping in the durability area.
The picture with page # 4 is the "LDS 465-1 " engine . The picture with page # 336 is the "LD 465-1" engine.
I agree with you on modifying your own vehicle. It's yours do with it as you will. I have modified every vehicle I ever owned, just to make it mine. Also I believe every mechanical device can be improved on. It's just a matter of how much you want to spend.

 

[gringeltaube]

Interesting, the difference in "valve events" between those two models. How can that be if the camshafts and timing gears were identical for all of these engines?

BTW, I see you have the -35 TM. Not in digital form, or....??


G.

 

[w3azel]

Wrong, cam engineering can help any engine. As a diesel mechanic I have seen massive improvement from "IHC" (Ford Engines), "Cummins", and even "Cat" over the years. There is even a difference between the "LDS 456-1 " and the "LD 465-1 " in cam opening

I'm sorry I did not clarify my statement. Cam modification or cam swapping is a predominantly gas engine thing. Meaning if you have a gas engine and you want to put down some numbers, be it on the street or strip, v8 or I4 cam swaps are very popular. In the world of diesel modification you rarely see cam mods or cam swaps done. Drag pullers and guy who go extreme are usually the only ones that dabble in that. The majority spend time focusing on fuel mods and turbo upgrades. The other engine mods are just to keep the temps down and the thing from blowing up. If you want to go the cam way more power to you.

Also I think everyone can agree that if you are focused on getting the best performance out of your engine you have to say goodbye to the multi fuel capability and accept diesel or at least diesel like blends.

 

[welldigger]

One thing I'm wondering is how will adding boost and more fuel in the MF affect the already failure prone head gaskets? I have wondered if having a custom copper head gasket would help with this problem. Any thoughts on this?