Interesting Response from Vermont DECLINING my HMMWV Registration

[ke6rwj]

Been working with Vermont to get my M998 Registered and at first they just wanted more money, declining my proof of sales tax payment. Ok fine, its a small price.. Then they declined saying...

"I APOLOGIZE FOR ANY INCONVENIENCE WE MAY HAVE CAUSED, BUT UNFORTUNATLEY WE CAN NOT REGISTER MILITARY VEHICLES WITHOUT PASSING SPECIFIC INSPECTION REGULATIONS. THIS VEHICLE DOES NOT MEET THOSE REQUIREMENTS."

what so no more mil veh in vermont, or did just draw a zealot from the pool of workers?

any vermont people have advice? (on hold with the office now for over an hour)

--Chris

 

[knighthawkgamer]

I got the same response a couple years ago when I tried to get mine registered in Vermont.

 

[FlameRed]

This is very interesting. I was successful last January with Vermont after a disgusting experience with the local Florida DMV. However, my M998 was a title transfer from Mississippi, so perhaps they considered road worthy? I also paid them the sales tax directly.

I found them to be VERY easy to deal with, and friendly. But it did take them a couple of months to issue the tags so I could drive it around.

Some of the paperwork stated I would need to take it in for a state inspection. But since it will never be driven inside Vermont I'm not too worried about them issueing me a ticket.

I hope they did not close the door.

 

[ke6rwj]

they did close the door actually, but with an excuse that is no where in the regs they follow, i contacted the Deputy Director of the VT DMV we will see what he says..

the thing is this is after 4 mailings to them with various excuses and after calling to confirm they drop this bogus reason. I wanna see if they can defend this or if its just a clerk whos gone rogue....


-- Chris in BAMA

 

[FlameRed]

This is VERY similar to Florida. There is NOTHING in the law that prohibits registration. It is just the unelected bureaucrats decided to stop. When I spoke to a Florida DMV official, he stated he would pull back the plates for any HMMWV and I should rat on my friends and turn them in! Like the idiot could not search his own DMV DB by the VIN ranges under American General and not pull them to revoke them?

Now I am concerned if I should continue with my planned projects if Vermont decides they are not going to renew me!?!?!

 

[ke6rwj]

This is VERY similar to Florida. There is NOTHING in the law that prohibits registration. It is just the unelected bureaucrats decided to stop. When I spoke to a Florida DMV official, he stated he would pull back the plates for any HMMWV and I should rat on my friends and turn them in! Like the idiot could not search his own DMV DB by the VIN ranges under American General and not pull them to revoke them?

Now I am concerned if I should continue with my planned projects if Vermont decides they are not going to renew me!?!?!

yea ill certainly keep the thread updated... you can register a set of frame rails as a custom vehicle in most states, but not a hmmwv... its really crazy..

we sent a couple vehicles to Cal for a show and the driver (on flatbed) got the 3rd degree about them going into California..

 

[Gamble]

Whats needed is a friendly Highway Patrol Officer willing to issue a 17 Digit VIN to HMMWVs. Then Voila, like magic, all of these issues go away.
This VT thing is scary though.

 

[Hummer Guy]

Been working with Vermont to get my M998 Registered and at first they just wanted more money, declining my proof of sales tax payment. Ok fine, its a small price.. Then they declined saying...

"I APOLOGIZE FOR ANY INCONVENIENCE WE MAY HAVE CAUSED, BUT UNFORTUNATLEY WE CAN NOT REGISTER MILITARY VEHICLES WITHOUT PASSING SPECIFIC INSPECTION REGULATIONS. THIS VEHICLE DOES NOT MEET THOSE REQUIREMENTS."

what so no more mil veh in vermont, or did just draw a zealot from the pool of workers?

any vermont people have advice? (on hold with the office now for over an hour)

--Chris

I was successful in registering my humvee in vermont last year and my BRDM 2 this year. The only thing they had wrote me back was for export proof on the BRDM and I had underpaid the fees.

 

[ke6rwj]

Well we have a response from the VT DMV..

DMV - AVIP <DMV.AVIP@vermont.gov>

2:03 PM (49 minutes ago)

to ***********************, DMV

If the vehicle in question does not meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS), nor is it in compliance with the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Clean Air Act (CAA) – Emissions Standards, then no it cannot be registered.

Does your vehicle meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) and have a certification affixed to the vehicle?
Does your vehicle meet federal emissions standards and have a VECI label affixed to the vehicle?

Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations (49 U.S.C. 571).

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is responsible for administering vehicle emission standards established under the Clean Air Act (CAA) or 42 U.S.C..

 

[mgFray]

There was some ruling in Wisconsin (not sure if it was state or Federal) that the HMMWV meets emissions due to the national security exemption. The way the law is written, it only affects the vehicle at the time it is built.

Now Vermont MAY have some other law that is more specific.

But pay attention to the age of the HMMWV. My 1988 for instance if you look at the federal emissions for this type of vehicle there _WERE NO_ EPA requirements for this engine! (It's considered to be a "large truck", and the emissions standards didn't come into play until some point in the 1990s.)

As for the FMVSS, it is my understanding that there is a military equivalent and most states will consider a vehicle meeting the military version to meeting the FMVSS. Again much of this is date dependnt. My 1988 for instance, no air bag... only 3-point seat belts required.. all of which I have.

So if they're going to quote specific regulations, check what the law was at the time it was made. Having a 'certification affixed to the military vehicle' was never a requirement as far as I understand it, as military vehicles are required to comply with applicable military regulations.

This also may be a point where you want to consult a lawyer who knows VT law, and can help you navigate if this is someone who isn't following the law (making their own law) or if VT really does have this codified and you need to find state reps to help change the laws.

(Minnesota for instance, they changed the law for registration of former military vehicles, if the vehicle has the same weight and dimensions of a commercial vehicle, the DMV is to register it as a normal vehicle. At the time of registration no armor or weapons [or simulations] are permitted. To me this seems like a pretty reasonable rule!)

 

[ke6rwj]

Millstandard 1180B (MIL STD 1180-B) States...


5.4 Application of FMVSS. The application of specific requirements within the FMVSS’S, military wheeled vehicles designed to (a) carry 10
passengers or less and (b) have a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of less than 10000 pounds, shall comply with those requirements which apply to
“passenger cars”. Military wheeled vehicles designed to carry more than 10 passengers, shall comply with those requirements which apply to “buses”. Military wheeled vehicles which have a GVWR equal to or greater than 10000 pounds, shall comply with those requirements which apply to “trucks”’.

pretty clear to me there...

 

[ke6rwj]

And regarding the Emissions testing specific to Vermont..



If a vehicle falls into one of the following categories, it must pass a Vermont smog check:

• Gasoline vehicles made in the 1996 model year or newer
• Diesel vehicles made in the 1997 weighing less than 8500 pounds

My HMMWV is a 1988.. So based on that is exempt.. but anyone have any clean air act specific stuff out there? I know this is state by state but more is better when dealing with these people..

 

[Mainsail]

Whats needed is a friendly Highway Patrol Officer willing to issue a 17 Digit VIN to HMMWVs. Then Voila, like magic, all of these issues go away.
This VT thing is scary though.

Leading zeros?

 

[Gamble]

Leading zeros?

Yep, that would work.

 

[juanprado]

Remember this is a gray area that Vt allowed in having vehicles registered in their state but domicile elsewhere. Do you really want to rattle them and pizz off the golden goose.
Smart for them as they collect fees and tax with no wear on their roads.

They might want out of the market as many other rolling stock besides military roll with Vt plates.
Must be like 10 vehicles per resident on their numbers

 

[Green Mountain Boys]

Well we have a response from the VT DMV..

DMV - AVIP <DMV.AVIP@vermont.gov>

2:03 PM (49 minutes ago)

to ***********************, DMV

If the vehicle in question does not meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS), nor is it in compliance with the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Clean Air Act (CAA) – Emissions Standards, then no it cannot be registered.

Does your vehicle meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) and have a certification affixed to the vehicle?
Does your vehicle meet federal emissions standards and have a VECI label affixed to the vehicle?

Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations (49 U.S.C. 571).

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is responsible for administering vehicle emission standards established under the Clean Air Act (CAA) or 42 U.S.C..

The Vermont DMV has a history of making some very large mistakes in the past. So, just because you got this official response from a high ranking DMV official does not necessarily mean he or she is correct. In the past, the DMV made a huge error in collecting sales tax. They collected sales tax that was not due to the state of Vermont. It was clearly a case of double taxation. They kept defending this faulty policy for years until finally a lawyer sued and won. Not only did he get a refund but the DMV had to refund all the excess sales tax collected going back YEARS! The DMV sent me a check for my overpaid sales tax many years after I paid it. I complained to the DMV at the time I paid the excess sales tax, that their application and calculation of the sales tax was wrong. But they did not want to listen to me. It took a judge to make them change thier ways.

The HUMVEE you are trying to register only needs to satisfy the requirements of that vehicle at the time it was manufactured. AND the military was exempt from some, or all, standards that applied to civilian vehicles. For example, military light switches enable you to turn off the brake lights while driving. A brake light delete switch is not allowed in a civilian vehicle. A military vehicle was not manufactured with a license plate light. If something was not original equipment from the factory you are not required to add it. Like an antique car from the 1950s may not have been made with seat belts so you are not required to have them now. I do not have a license plate light and my truck passes an annual safety inspection. It is also my understanding that a former military vehicle now registered by a civilian does not have to meet civilian requirements to be on the road in Vermont. Can Vermont force me to add ABS brakes to my truck (1998 LMTV) that was not manufactured with ABS even though it is the standard now? No. ABS may have even been standard on similar civilian vehicles in 1998.

The DMV cannot apply current emissions standards to an old 1980s era HUMVEE. The Vermont DMV vehicle registration form does not ask for engine specific information beyond the fuel type and the number of cylinders. If they do not ask for emissions data on the registration form how they can just assume a vehicle is non compliant? Also, Vermont has NO EMISSIONS TESTING! NONE! EVER! Vermont vehicles are required to have an annual safety inspection performed by a state approved mechanic. They check items like; current registration, insurance, brakes, lights, horn, tires, excessive rust that makes a vehicle a road hazard, exhaust leaks, factory installed emissions equipment must be on the vehicle, seat belts, no safety related dash board warning lights etc. This does not include any form of emissions testing.

I do not believe the so called, Vermont loophole is, or was, any sort of conscious attempt by Vermont to gather more money. I believe the Vermont loophole predates computers by a long time. Vermont has a lot of wealthy second home owners who come here to spend the summers. This has been going on here for over 150 years. They own another home somewhere else, usually warmer . These people have long had a desire to register a vehicle in Vermont that might stay at their Vermont property while they are living most of the time in another state. So the Vermont DMV accommodated these people by accepting these registration requests by mail from out of state residents. The Vermont state government usually tries to keep these folks happy because they help drive the state economy.

I wonder if this represents a change, or attempted change, in position by the Vermont DMV with regard to HUMVEEs and/or other military vehicles?
I wonder if I would receive the same response from the DMV if I walked into the local office tomorrow with a new HUMVEE registration request?
I wonder if I would receive the same response from the DMV if I walked into the local office tomorrow with a registration renewal for a HUMVEE?

There is currently a push from the Vermont State House for more cleaner electric vehicles and to lower overall emissions with some targets in the near future. Maybe this is someone trying to implement a change under the banner of environmentalism by limiting the registration of a low volume, "dirty" vehicle? And it would not surprise me if someone is trying to do this with no authority at all.

 

[Mogman]

The Vermont DMV has a history of making some very large mistakes in the past. So, just because you got this official response from a high ranking DMV official does not necessarily mean he or she is correct. In the past, the DMV made a huge error in collecting sales tax. They collected sales tax that was not due to the state of Vermont. It was clearly a case of double taxation. They kept defending this faulty policy for years until finally a lawyer sued and won. Not only did he get a refund but the DMV had to refund all the excess sales tax collected going back YEARS! The DMV sent me a check for my overpaid sales tax many years after I paid it. I complained to the DMV at the time I paid the excess sales tax, that their application and calculation of the sales tax was wrong. But they did not want to listen to me. It took a judge to make them change thier ways.

The HUMVEE you are trying to register only needs to satisfy the requirements of that vehicle at the time it was manufactured. AND the military was exempt from some, or all, standards that applied to civilian vehicles. For example, military light switches enable you to turn off the brake lights while driving. A brake light delete switch is not allowed in a civilian vehicle. A military vehicle was not manufactured with a license plate light. If something was not original equipment from the factory you are not required to add it. Like an antique car from the 1950s may not have been made with seat belts so you are not required to have them now. I do not have a license plate light and my truck passes an annual safety inspection. It is also my understanding that a former military vehicle now registered by a civilian does not have to meet civilian requirements to be on the road in Vermont. Can Vermont force me to add ABS brakes to my truck (1998 LMTV) that was not manufactured with ABS even though it is the standard now? No. ABS may have even been standard on similar civilian vehicles in 1998.

The DMV cannot apply current emissions standards to an old 1980s era HUMVEE. The Vermont DMV vehicle registration form does not ask for engine specific information beyond the fuel type and the number of cylinders. If they do not ask for emissions data on the registration form how they can just assume a vehicle is non compliant? Also, Vermont has NO EMISSIONS TESTING! NONE! EVER! Vermont vehicles are required to have an annual safety inspection performed by a state approved mechanic. They check items like; current registration, insurance, brakes, lights, horn, tires, excessive rust that makes a vehicle a road hazard, exhaust leaks, factory installed emissions equipment must be on the vehicle, seat belts, no safety related dash board warning lights etc. This does not include any form of emissions testing.

I do not believe the so called, Vermont loophole is, or was, any sort of conscious attempt by Vermont to gather more money. I believe the Vermont loophole predates computers by a long time. Vermont has a lot of wealthy second home owners who come here to spend the summers. This has been going on here for over 150 years. They own another home somewhere else, usually warmer . These people have long had a desire to register a vehicle in Vermont that might stay at their Vermont property while they are living most of the time in another state. So the Vermont DMV accommodated these people by accepting these registration requests by mail from out of state residents. The Vermont state government usually tries to keep these folks happy because they help drive the state economy.

I wonder if this represents a change, or attempted change, in position by the Vermont DMV with regard to HUMVEEs and/or other military vehicles?
I wonder if I would receive the same response from the DMV if I walked into the local office tomorrow with a new HUMVEE registration request?
I wonder if I would receive the same response from the DMV if I walked into the local office tomorrow with a registration renewal for a HUMVEE?

There is currently a push from the Vermont State House for more cleaner electric vehicles and to lower overall emissions with some targets in the near future. Maybe this is someone trying to implement a change under the banner of environmentalism by limiting the registration of a low volume, "dirty" vehicle? And it would not surprise me if someone is trying to do this with no authority at all.

Well let's see here, they were "looking the other way" because they were getting some extra revenue through double taxation to people that were circumventing the state laws where they lived and then a lawyer came along and put a stop to it, geez I wonder why they are now now less hospitable to "those folks"

 

[ke6rwj]

Stay tuned everybody we have some movement on this issue.

Remember this is a gray area that Vt allowed in having vehicles registered in their state but domicile elsewhere. Do you really want to rattle them and pizz off the golden goose.
Smart for them as they collect fees and tax with no wear on their roads.

They might want out of the market as many other rolling stock besides military roll with Vt plates.
Must be like 10 vehicles per resident on their numbers

regarding the above post. I totally understand, however we must force them to follow the law. simply allowing a bureaucrat to decide how its gonna be and not the published law serves no purpose. I am not doing anything that will "kill the golden goose" but I am advocating for the application of the law. Simply putting my head down and accepting an arbitrary response from them is not gonna help anyone. this needs clarifying so others don't run into the same trouble I am. The reality is the workers who handle the paperwork are overworked, underpaid and untrained in the application of the law in "edge cases". they can register a 2022 Honda like a champ, but a HMMWV is a challenge, they probably don't even know what an M998 is. So I'm not assuming malice or animus here just inexperience in application of the law in this case.

I am just trying to follow their laws

I do not believe the so called, Vermont loophole is, or was, any sort of conscious attempt by Vermont to gather more money. I believe the Vermont loophole predates computers by a long time. Vermont has a lot of wealthy second home owners who come here to spend the summers. This has been going on here for over 150 years. They own another home somewhere else, usually warmer . These people have long had a desire to register a vehicle in Vermont that might stay at their Vermont property while they are living most of the time in another state. So the Vermont DMV accommodated these people by accepting these registration requests by mail from out of state residents. The Vermont state government usually tries to keep these folks happy because they help drive the state economy.

regarding this from Green Mountain Boys... I totally agree with everything you stated. Regardless of why the laws were created, they are in fact there. Should a regular citizen be excluded from them? the reality is this... 1) Most people don't know the law they can follow 2) they accept what the clerk tells them as "law" 3) they give up. I can assure you this isn't how big businesses do it, and certainly not "others" who operate their lives as a business.

To me this is a business problem to be solved, its important to me from a business perspective, and everyone else in the hobby.

 

[juanprado]

My swag is all the race cars, vintage stuff, Jap & Chinese mini cars/trucks, military, etc has to be a pain to process. VT might want out. All these state dmv go to national conventions where beaurocrats share ideas and feed off each other. It is no coincidence that multiple states are regulating military vehichles as it is a direct blow back of these national mtgs.

One person with one friendly senator can start the ball rolling in Al to change laws in a deep red state. They can use La or Tx as examples.

Others here have posted about Mt and forming a llc.

I have seen Maine tighten up slightly on trailers.

I wish you the best in your quest and success in driving your hmmwv.

 

[BLK HMMWV]

In 90 % of all the posts I see everyone is trying to get a vehicle registered in a state that the vehicle has never been in.
And probably will never be in. Then they want the tags sent to a different state.
I don't get it. You buy a truck from auction in Ca. let's just say, you pay extra for a Florida, Vermont, whatever State Title that the vehicle isn't even in nor ever has been and you don't even live there, and you want to keep the truck in the State you actually live in which isn't the State you're trying to get it plated in.
Why not just register it or buy one that's already in the state you live in.
At some point, aren't you not exactly being honest to the governing body issuing you the tags or insuring your truck.
At some point I'd be worried it's going to eventually catch up to you if you're in an accident or have an insurance claim.