Interesting Response from Vermont DECLINING my HMMWV Registration

[ke6rwj]

In 90 % of all the posts I see everyone is trying to get a vehicle registered in a state that the vehicle has never been in.
And probably will never be in. Then they want the tags sent to a different state.
I don't get it. You buy a truck from auction in Ca. let's just say, you pay extra for a Florida, Vermont, whatever State Title that the vehicle isn't even in nor ever has been and you don't even live there, and you want to keep the truck in the State you actually live in which isn't the State you're trying to get it plated in.
Why not just register it or buy one that's already in the state you live in.
At some point, aren't you not exactly being honest to the governing body issuing you the tags or insuring your truck.
At some point I'd be worried it's going to eventually catch up to you if you're in an accident or have an insurance claim.

many states allow registrations of vehicles from other states. This is especially true with trailers and commercial vehicles. Vermont has purposefully legalized this in their state, and is 100% legal. There are no insurance or legal issues with it. Why do it, because some states have varying rules on registrations it is often the only **LEGAL** method by which to register a vehicle.

again, it is 100% legal...

 

[Mogman]

BUT many states require the state resident to surrender the out of state title and apply for that states title/registration within 30 days. of that vehicles new residence within the state.
With all the states able to monitor and record (and they are) license plate movements within their state this would be hard to argue against.
It would be far better for everyone in the states that do not allow HMMWV registration to get organized, pony up some bucks for lobbyists and get that changed.
BUT after finding out there are some that will not even pony up $15 a year for this forum it may be a lost cause.

 

[ke6rwj]

BUT many states require the state resident to surrender the out of state title and apply for that states title/registration within 30 days. of that vehicles new residence within the state.
With all the states able to monitor and record (and they are) license plate movements within their state this would be hard to argue against.
It would be far better for everyone in the states that do not allow HMMWV registration to get organized, pony up some bucks for lobbyists and get that changed.
BUT after finding out there are some that will not even pony up $15 a year for this forum it may be a lost cause.

I don't disagree with your assessment on advocating for the hobby, I've been big on that for a long time.

Regarding the surrender of a title from other states and use of out of state plates isn't as cut and dry as it might seem. Vacation homes, business interests, dual ownership and individual state laws all play a role. In my case I own a movie prop company and at any one time vehicles are spread out all over the country. We previously never bothered to register some cars as they would never be on the streets.. (police cars for example) but a recent event changed our policy on this as our shipper was challenged about the legal ownership of a vehicle he was hauling and the only real "proof" they wanted was a title or registration on a vehicle that was 50 years old. How do you accomplish that in a state that wants a title for everything? or if it hasn't been registered? Many states make it very difficult to meet these requirements because the laws aren't written for the edge cases, only the most common ones, it takes $$$ to force change in the government. I once thought that the MVPA was that force, but no longer. They are only really interested in WW2 jeeps and the like, they don't care about anything newer.. and that's sad, because they really are the right group to do it.

anyway, enough of a rant.

 

[dilvoy]

Millstandard 1180B (MIL STD 1180-B) States...


5.4 Application of FMVSS. The application of specific requirements within the FMVSS’S, military wheeled vehicles designed to (a) carry 10
passengers or less and (b) have a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of less than 10000 pounds, shall comply with those requirements which apply to
“passenger cars”. Military wheeled vehicles designed to carry more than 10 passengers, shall comply with those requirements which apply to “buses”. Military wheeled vehicles which have a GVWR equal to or greater than 10000 pounds, shall comply with those requirements which apply to “trucks”’.

pretty clear to me there...

Am General had the Hummer H1 models classes as Class 3 Trucks so they would not have to meet more stringent light truck requirements.

 

[ke6rwj]

Am General had the Hummer H1 models classes as Class 3 Trucks so they would not have to meet more stringent light truck requirements.

id love to put a hummer H1 and a mil HMMWV side by side and see what's different...

 

[Green Mountain Boys]

Well let's see here, they were "looking the other way" because they were getting some extra revenue through double taxation to people that were circumventing the state laws where they lived and then a lawyer came along and put a stop to it, geez I wonder why they are now now less hospitable to "those folks"

I am sorry, I may not have been entirely clear. The past mistake made by the Vermont DVM with sales tax was completely unrelated to (the Vermont loophole) registering vehicles by mail from people who were currently located in another state. I was trying to use their previous mistake with taxation as an example to illustrate how they are not impervious to error.

I believe the Vermont DMV was completing registrations for people not located in Vermont for many decades. Possibly for as long as there have been cars. My memory does not go back that far. I also believe it was not begun as a means to bend or break any laws. The DMV was trying to find a way to serve people who owned a home in Vermont but spent most of their time at one of their other homes in other states. I think it is only recently (20 years or less) that this loophole is being widely used in a manner that was not intended. The type of people impacted by this issue before the internet were often very wealthy. They owned large estates, had a staff of people to maintain the property and the property required 1 or more vehicles. It seems reasonable to me for a Vermont property owner to be able to register a vehicle in Vermont even if they are not a resident because they do not spend a minimum of 6 months a year here. Vermont still has large estates. That has not changed. What has changed is technology.

I hope this is a little more clear. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

 

[ke6rwj]

I was successful in registering my humvee in vermont last year and my BRDM 2 this year. The only thing they had wrote me back was for export proof on the BRDM and I had underpaid the fees.

BRDM 2 WOOOT! I wandered around FT Irwin in the early 90s in a HMMWV VisMod BRDM 2 rkh, Chemical warfare truck... those things are cool...

 

[mgFray]

id love to put a hummer H1 and a mil HMMWV side by side and see what's different...

Lights.. whenever I see a HMMWV / Hummer H1 in a movie, I always look at the lights. H1 doesn't have the front blackout light, and the front markers are square.

On the back, again square (with reverse) for the tail lights.

H1 also had to conform to the 'wide vehicle' lighting requirements, so you will see center markers on the windshield frame in the middle, as well as in the middle on the back.

Other then that, everything else is seems to be interior and wiring from what little I've been able to tell.. but I've only gotten to spend about 10 minutes side by side with an H1.

 

[98G]

id love to put a hummer H1 and a mil HMMWV side by side and see what's different...

I've done it. The answer - "very little"

 

[Hummer Guy]

Lights.. whenever I see a HMMWV / Hummer H1 in a movie, I always look at the lights. H1 doesn't have the front blackout light, and the front markers are square.

On the back, again square (with reverse) for the tail lights.

H1 also had to conform to the 'wide vehicle' lighting requirements, so you will see center markers on the windshield frame in the middle, as well as in the middle on the back.

Other then that, everything else is seems to be interior and wiring from what little I've been able to tell.. but I've only gotten to spend about 10 minutes side by side with an H1.

Another thing I can tell by is the doors, mirrors, and with the passenger wagon tops from the rear

 

[sreng]

I am not sure this helps but a clarification letter from NHTSA:

For both legal and policy reasons we affirm that the trucks in question are "motor vehicles" as defined by 15 U.S.C. 139113), that vehicles produced to military specifi cations are exempt from the Federal motor vehicle safety standards (49 CFR 571.7(c)), but that they are subject to statutory notification and remedy provisions in the event that they incorporate a safety related defect.

nht88-1.29 | NHTSA

TYPE: INTERPRETATION-NHTSA DATE: 02/09/88 FROM: AUTHOR UNAVAILABLE; Erika Z. Jones; NHTSA TO: Karen Hastie Williams -- Crowell & Moring TITLE: FMVSS INTERPRETATION TEXT: Ms. Karen Hastie Williams Crowell & Moring 1001 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. Washington, DC 20004-2505

www.nhtsa.gov

 

[Vapor Trail]

My state, Kentucky, passed a law a few years back saying it is ok to register HMMWVs for the road so I hope I don't have to go through all this mess after spending a year and a bunch of money restoring the vehicle.

 

[1088logtruck]

Not sure if this will help anyone but I was going to go the VT route for my 1088 and ended up finding it much easier to add it to my Montana llc and reg/title it that way. Got the plates and title back already took like 3 weeks. And being that it's owned by a pit of state biz they can't make you register it where it lives.

 

[Mainsail]

I gave up on VT. Despite demanding my email and phone number, they don't actually use it.

I used the info on their website to calculate the fees and waited five weeks. Then I got EVERYTHING back in the mail with a letter telling me I didn't include enough money.

Rewrote the check and mailed EVERYTHING back, and waited five weeks...

I got EVERYTHING back in the mail saying they needed the vehicle inspected. What's next?!

At that rate it could be years before I ever got the plate.

 

[1088logtruck]

I'd go with Montana then if VT is being like that. Go to tlcllc.com and it's real easy. I di have to have it "inspected" as part of the process but by a local to me police officer...just call the non emergency line and they will have someone come out.

 

[Mogman]

This might be interesting:
Texas outlawed all dune buggies/sand rails just by the description of the vehicle in like 2017 (actually earlier but 2017 is when they started enforcing it) letters were sent out demanding the owners relinquish their titles.
In 2019 they reinstated the "dune buggies" if the owner would jump through a ton of hoops including having the vehicle inspected at length by a certified master ASE technition.

Using the donor VW title is specifically prohibited.

But not so for the sand rails, described (paraphrasing) " a vehicle with a non vehicle manufacturers tubular chassis"

OK so there are many states that have no beef with the sand rail, Louisiana being one of them.

I met a guy that lives in (a Texas town), that also has a home in LA. and has his sand rail registered in LA. and drives it every week in that Texas town without being hassled once.

So I did some checking into the reciprocal vehicle laws, most states have them, it basically means if it is legal in the state it is registered in all is OK to drive it in Texas, so far so good.

BUT in Texas only if you are not legally a resident of Texas, he has a Texas drivers license which means he is a resident.

This of course can be very problematic from simply receiving a citation to getting in an accident and having his insurance declined because he was operating a prohibited vehicle.

It could possibly lead to that sand rail being seized, SOP for vehicles caught driving without insurance.

No commercial vehicles that are not legal in Texas are allowed on Texas roads (I believe the FEDS stomped on TX until they allowed international vehicles to operate in Texas, read NAFTA) so that would seem to leave out the other (LLC for example) avenues for legally driving a prohibited vehicle in Texas and I would not be surprised if many states are not the same.

The disturbing thing is the prohibition of the sand rail is a RULE not a LAW, this means it just came out of some committee and nobody seems to be able to figure out who was on that committee.

There was an organization that was formed to fight this and they succeeded in getting the dune buggies "reinstated" but then I guess the officers took what cash was left and shagged out of there, they are still seeking donations but have not had any postings since 2019 and do not respond to questions.

 

[Green Mountain Boys]

I gave up on VT. Despite demanding my email and phone number, they don't actually use it.

I used the info on their website to calculate the fees and waited five weeks. Then I got EVERYTHING back in the mail with a letter telling me I didn't include enough money.

Rewrote the check and mailed EVERYTHING back, and waited five weeks...

I got EVERYTHING back in the mail saying they needed the vehicle inspected. What's next?!

At that rate it could be years before I ever got the plate.

The Vermont DMV seems to be going through some policy changes with regard to out of state registration applications. In the last several months the Vermont DMV has had some mixed decisions on out of state registration applications. This seems to indicate the policy changes are not being applied uniformly despite all of the applications going through the same Montpelier office! I think what is happening is someone in a position of authority at the DMV saw the increase in the volume of out of state registration applications and decided they wanted to modify the policy to reduce the volume of applications. (Possibly targeting HUMVEES) So instead of developing a uniform written policy change that would address their perceived problem, they are instead tossing out some half baked excuses to cause people to give up and go away.

For example, you, and several others have reported the Vermont DMV has requested the vehicle be inspected PRIOR to receiving your registration. This has never been done before and to the best of my knowledge is not being done now. Why? Because, when you purchase a used vehicle in Vermont, you would first get the vehicle registered and insured and then you take vehicle with your proof of registration and insurance to any Vermont mechanic for a vehicle inspection. In the case of a new vehicle purchase, the car dealer would apply an inspection sticker prior to the car leaving the lot. In my experience the mechanics are very careful about making sure the registration and insurance documents are current, because the state does audit their inspection records. The inspection consists of mostly safety related issues. They make sure tire tread is legal, no severe rust that would affect the safety of the vehicle, no broken windshield, excessive brake wear, steering is tight, no bad wheel bearings, no safety related dash board warning lights, no exhaust leaks, no burned out light bulbs, etc. On newer vehicles, they also check the computer for any safety related or emissions faults. So if the computer is reporting a faulty O2 sensor of catalytic converter fault then you would probably be required to fix it. However, There is NO tail pipe emissions test. They do not test a sample of your exhaust. They would probably like to, but, so far, they have not figured out a way to pay for it.

It is interesting the DMV is telling you that you must have your vehicle inspection BEFORE you register the vehicle because there is no process to comply that I know of. The first thing the mechanic will ask you to provide is registration and insurance. When you don't have that, there is no inspection. I also suspect if you walked into a DMV office to register your HUMVEE you would not get the same response. I fully expect you would walk out with a registration after paying your fees and then you would need to go get the vehicle safety inspection done OR don't drive the vehicle in the state of Vermont because only Vermont police are going to enforce that law. I would suggest you ask the Vermont DMV official to show you the applicable rule that states what they are telling you because I believe they are just making this stuff up.

I doubt you would have received the same response from the DMV if you were registering a BMW, Audi, or other expensive car brand the snowbirds like to drive in Vermont. Not because of the revenue, because it is not a HUMVEE.

If the Vermont DMV thought they needed to make a change they should have developed a well thought out written policy, posted the proposed policy change and taken feedback, made any necessary changes and then posted a date the policy would go into effect. That would at least avoid the confusion and frustration of not knowing what to expect. There is no excuse for not having a uniform policy.

 

[osteo16]

id love to put a hummer H1 and a mil HMMWV side by side and see what's different...

Padded Dash, ABS, collapsible steering column... Just a few safety features. Just tossing out some cents... Ain't worth much these days..

 

[m1010plowboy]

Was it the American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators (AAMVA) that started this problem? We should call them and ask. It never hurts to ask. Here's the Vermont Rep from the AAMVA group that appears to be making the biggest difference in our MV drive time. Her name is Wanda Minoli and she happens to be the Commissioner for the Vermont Department of Motor Vehicles.

Wanda Minoli - American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators - AAMVA

AAMVA is a non-governmental, voluntary, tax-exempt, nonprofit educational association. AAMVA is a private corporation which strives to develop model programs in motor vehicle administration, police traffic services, and highway safety.

www.aamva.org

Usually the contact page doesn't have direct phone numbers but Vermont is transparent and wants to serve the public.

Phone Numbers | Department of Motor Vehicles

dmv.vermont.gov

8028282011

The AAMVA is a collective of brilliant heads of transportation just like Wanda. 'They' could be very helpful in deflecting legislation to prolong our MV life if we have some support from their board.......but looking through their website, they are going to be the people who administer our future.

Home - American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators - AAMVA

AAMVA is a non-governmental, voluntary, tax-exempt, nonprofit educational association. AAMVA is a private corporation which strives to develop model programs in motor vehicle administration, police traffic services, and highway safety.

www.aamva.org

This particular Executive Order (EO) spells out some details on how 'they'.......the folks that want dirty vehicles off the road.......are going to begin.

Executive Order on Strengthening American Leadership in Clean Cars and Trucks | The White House

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, and in order to promote the interests of American workers, businesses, consumers, and communities, it is hereby ordered as follows: Section 1. Policy. America must lead the world...

www.whitehouse.gov

""""""""Section 1. Policy. America must lead the world on clean and efficient cars and trucks. That means bolstering our domestic market by setting a goal that 50 percent of all new passenger cars and light trucks sold in 2030 be zero-emission vehicles, including battery electric, plug-in hybrid electric, or fuel cell electric vehicles. """""""""

That EO was found among other info with the very folks that might be responsible for poking the MV Bear.

Executive Orders - American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators - AAMVA

AAMVA is a non-governmental, voluntary, tax-exempt, nonprofit educational association. AAMVA is a private corporation which strives to develop model programs in motor vehicle administration, police traffic services, and highway safety.

www.aamva.org

""""""" The Executive Office of the President issues executive actions to guide federal agency and department heads. Executive actions with impact to the motor vehicle and law enforcement community can be found below. """"""""

Vermont is in Region 1 and if you want to find out who is going to be responsible for extending your MV drive time in your region, they're right here.

Regional Boards of Directors - American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators - AAMVA

AAMVA is a non-governmental, voluntary, tax-exempt, nonprofit educational association. AAMVA is a private corporation which strives to develop model programs in motor vehicle administration, police traffic services, and highway safety.

www.aamva.org

We're 10 days away from our New Year 2023 and 2190 days away from 2030. How many more days do we have? Instead of pulling us over and running up the fines, 'they' should be escorting us.

 

[TOBASH]

From what I’m told, and that ain’t much, mostly the problem is side impact. You need to upgrade vehicle to specks of 2006 re.: impact. Emissions is easy to deal with.

Plan B claims to get these vehicles road ready for all states. Might be good to look into how.

30 year or older trucks are better as they are exempt.