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Involuntary starter run
- Thread starter aboonski
- Start date
- 10,350
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- Meadows of Dan, Virginia
RE: I found the source of the problem!
A battery which isn't fully charged will lower the cranking voltage and increase the current in proportion. To reduce chance of burning up relay/solenoid contacts, make sure the batteries are in top condition and connections done right.
A battery which isn't fully charged will lower the cranking voltage and increase the current in proportion. To reduce chance of burning up relay/solenoid contacts, make sure the batteries are in top condition and connections done right.
aboonski
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- West Melbourne Florida
The truck is running again!
Thanks for that tip Bjorn and I did make sure each battery was topped off before starting the truck again. Something must have happened to Alternator #1 because the light stays on continuously and this has never happened before. I looked over the fuseable links on the diamond mount at the firewall but they looked fine. I don't even know which alternator is #1 - probably the driver's side but not sure.
I am posting a photo of the replacement NAPA AR135 starter relay that I bought in Cocoa Beach today for $13.50 plus tax. It is slightly different because of the way it mounts plus it has one additional terminal that really doesn't affect the CUCV application at all. I went ahead and installed a switch in-line with the red wire that feeds the starter solenoid circuit in case I ever have this problem again. It also serves as an additional security device of sorts - if you leave the switch off the starter cannot be engaged. Pictures of the completed application are below. The awitch on the left is for the glow plug relay and the light you see indicates the glow plug circuit is active.
Thanks for that tip Bjorn and I did make sure each battery was topped off before starting the truck again. Something must have happened to Alternator #1 because the light stays on continuously and this has never happened before. I looked over the fuseable links on the diamond mount at the firewall but they looked fine. I don't even know which alternator is #1 - probably the driver's side but not sure.
I am posting a photo of the replacement NAPA AR135 starter relay that I bought in Cocoa Beach today for $13.50 plus tax. It is slightly different because of the way it mounts plus it has one additional terminal that really doesn't affect the CUCV application at all. I went ahead and installed a switch in-line with the red wire that feeds the starter solenoid circuit in case I ever have this problem again. It also serves as an additional security device of sorts - if you leave the switch off the starter cannot be engaged. Pictures of the completed application are below. The awitch on the left is for the glow plug relay and the light you see indicates the glow plug circuit is active.
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mangus580
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RE: The truck is running again!
Is the red wire the 12v wire? I thought the purple was 24v, and thats the wire you want to switch. Its that connection that fails, and sticks.
Is the red wire the 12v wire? I thought the purple was 24v, and thats the wire you want to switch. Its that connection that fails, and sticks.
CCATLETT1984
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RE: The truck is running again!
the purple is the wire going from the relay to the starter, that is the wire you need to switch to be able to save the starter. Must be a heavy duty switch, due to the current that goes through the circuit while the starter is engaged.
the purple is the wire going from the relay to the starter, that is the wire you need to switch to be able to save the starter. Must be a heavy duty switch, due to the current that goes through the circuit while the starter is engaged.
aboonski
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- West Melbourne Florida
red wire versus the purple wire
I traced the circuit inside of the bad relay and found that the red wire actually provides the power that cranks the starter once the relay trips. I may be wrong but I think the purpose of the additional solenoid was to prevent premature failure of the ignition switch due to the additional amperage draw of the larger starter solenoid used by the CUCV. Doesn't the starter motor run on 24 volts and the solenoid attached to it use 12 volts to energize? I did not take any voltage readings of any of the wires so I really don't know if I am right; but I do know that the completed circuit that causes the starter run, when the ignition key is off is between the red wire and the purple wire that goes down to the starter and energizes the solenoid at that point. The purple wire that comes from the ignition key in the steering column activates or should I say completes the circuit that energizes the relay that I just replaced. It all works in the same manner as a horn relay in any car. The horn button cannot handle the amperage required to blow the horn so the horn relay does that when the points close and a thicker wire provides the higher amps to the horns themselves. Check it out and see. You have to open the relay to see all of this. Please let me know if I am wrong!!!!!!
I traced the circuit inside of the bad relay and found that the red wire actually provides the power that cranks the starter once the relay trips. I may be wrong but I think the purpose of the additional solenoid was to prevent premature failure of the ignition switch due to the additional amperage draw of the larger starter solenoid used by the CUCV. Doesn't the starter motor run on 24 volts and the solenoid attached to it use 12 volts to energize? I did not take any voltage readings of any of the wires so I really don't know if I am right; but I do know that the completed circuit that causes the starter run, when the ignition key is off is between the red wire and the purple wire that goes down to the starter and energizes the solenoid at that point. The purple wire that comes from the ignition key in the steering column activates or should I say completes the circuit that energizes the relay that I just replaced. It all works in the same manner as a horn relay in any car. The horn button cannot handle the amperage required to blow the horn so the horn relay does that when the points close and a thicker wire provides the higher amps to the horns themselves. Check it out and see. You have to open the relay to see all of this. Please let me know if I am wrong!!!!!!
CCATLETT1984
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RE: red wire versus the purple wire
the purple wire is 24V. it feeds the starter solenoid.
the red wire simply provides the 12v to allow the magnetic coil inside the relay to be energized, thus completing the 24v circuit and sending power to the starter solenoid.
the purple wire is 24V. it feeds the starter solenoid.
the red wire simply provides the 12v to allow the magnetic coil inside the relay to be energized, thus completing the 24v circuit and sending power to the starter solenoid.
aboonski
Member
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- West Melbourne Florida
The way my truck is wired
Good Morning all! I just did a test of all the wires that run to the starter relay in my dashboard and found the following:
The purple wire with the white stripe comes from the steering column. When you turn the ignition switch to the start position, it shoots 12 volts to the starter relay and energizes the relay.
The purple wire goes down to the starter solenoid - the one that is mounted on the starter itself.
The black wire is simply the ground that completes the circuit for the coil inside of the starter relay.
The red wire provides the 24 volts that is used to energize the starter solenoid and is always hot.
When you turn the key to start, you are sending 12 volts from the steering column ignition switch down to the starter relay which energizes the relay and closes the contact points that connect the red wire with 24 volts to the purple wire which goes down to the starter solenoid and causes the starter to turn.
I don't know what the TM indicates but that is how it works in my '86 M1008A1. If you pop the top on the starter relay you can easily trace the path of the power that feeds the purple wire. If you were to connect the purple and white-striped wire with the purple wire in my truck, nothing would happen unless you were to turn the ignition key to the start position - then it would be possible for the 12 volts from the ignition key to energize the starter solenoid but you would quickly burn out the ignition switch by doing this and the voltage would probably be shy of the amount needed to push the bendix into the flywheel.
It would be interesting to know how other CUCVs are wired for this application.
Al Broadbent
Good Morning all! I just did a test of all the wires that run to the starter relay in my dashboard and found the following:
The purple wire with the white stripe comes from the steering column. When you turn the ignition switch to the start position, it shoots 12 volts to the starter relay and energizes the relay.
The purple wire goes down to the starter solenoid - the one that is mounted on the starter itself.
The black wire is simply the ground that completes the circuit for the coil inside of the starter relay.
The red wire provides the 24 volts that is used to energize the starter solenoid and is always hot.
When you turn the key to start, you are sending 12 volts from the steering column ignition switch down to the starter relay which energizes the relay and closes the contact points that connect the red wire with 24 volts to the purple wire which goes down to the starter solenoid and causes the starter to turn.
I don't know what the TM indicates but that is how it works in my '86 M1008A1. If you pop the top on the starter relay you can easily trace the path of the power that feeds the purple wire. If you were to connect the purple and white-striped wire with the purple wire in my truck, nothing would happen unless you were to turn the ignition key to the start position - then it would be possible for the 12 volts from the ignition key to energize the starter solenoid but you would quickly burn out the ignition switch by doing this and the voltage would probably be shy of the amount needed to push the bendix into the flywheel.
It would be interesting to know how other CUCVs are wired for this application.
Al Broadbent
mangus580
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RE: The way my truck is wired
That sounds right. I was pulling some from memory without looking at the TM. All I was trying to say was make sure your switch will cut the 24v, not the 12v...
That sounds right. I was pulling some from memory without looking at the TM. All I was trying to say was make sure your switch will cut the 24v, not the 12v...
aboonski
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- West Melbourne Florida
RE: The way my truck is wired
Yea Mike, everything running from the steering column works off of the 12 volt side of the electrical system. Once you get into the starter relay and see how it works it all comes together with common sense. Now I have to figure out what took place with alternator #1 because the light stays on continuously.
Yea Mike, everything running from the steering column works off of the 12 volt side of the electrical system. Once you get into the starter relay and see how it works it all comes together with common sense. Now I have to figure out what took place with alternator #1 because the light stays on continuously.
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RE: The way my truck is wired
What does the schematic say? I don't have my CUCV tms since my laptop is dead.
What does the schematic say? I don't have my CUCV tms since my laptop is dead.
mangus580
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RE: The way my truck is wired
Kenny what he describes sounds right.
Al, I would follow all the wires leading to the drives side alternator. Make sure they are all intact. Use a volt meter to see if the 'red' (I think) wire on the back of the alternator has 12v with respect to ground. Also make sure the black wire is properly grounded from the alternator to the engine. If both of these are true, I would suggest pulling the alternator and having it tested. Make sure when they test it, they are aware of the ground isolation stud on the back. They MUST ground to that stud, or it will fail the test for sure.
Kenny what he describes sounds right.
Al, I would follow all the wires leading to the drives side alternator. Make sure they are all intact. Use a volt meter to see if the 'red' (I think) wire on the back of the alternator has 12v with respect to ground. Also make sure the black wire is properly grounded from the alternator to the engine. If both of these are true, I would suggest pulling the alternator and having it tested. Make sure when they test it, they are aware of the ground isolation stud on the back. They MUST ground to that stud, or it will fail the test for sure.
aboonski
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- West Melbourne Florida
#1 Alternator
Thanks for the tip mangus580! I have a feeling that I blew a diode or two inside of the alternator because of the way I disconnected the battery posts - I actually wound up cutting the positive wire off of the front battery because I could not get the battery post off.....the starter kept going even when I was down to
12 volts!
My CUCV is my daily driver and I must use it today despite the #1 alternator light being illuminated. I will manually charge the batteries once I get to my destination which is ten miles away and once I get back home.
I feel confident that I have solved the starter problem now that I have a new relay and that kill switch to depend on. I'll bet there was some kind of a tech advisory on the starter problem somewhere along the line. What a wimpy relay that GM used for the starter application!
Thanks for the tip mangus580! I have a feeling that I blew a diode or two inside of the alternator because of the way I disconnected the battery posts - I actually wound up cutting the positive wire off of the front battery because I could not get the battery post off.....the starter kept going even when I was down to
12 volts!
My CUCV is my daily driver and I must use it today despite the #1 alternator light being illuminated. I will manually charge the batteries once I get to my destination which is ten miles away and once I get back home.
I feel confident that I have solved the starter problem now that I have a new relay and that kill switch to depend on. I'll bet there was some kind of a tech advisory on the starter problem somewhere along the line. What a wimpy relay that GM used for the starter application!
mangus580
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Re: #1 Alternator
Based off of this information, you are probably right. Either that, or you burned the wire between the alternators. By cutting the connection you did, it left a path of voltage through the alternator wiring still.aboonski said:
aboonski
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- West Melbourne Florida
RE: Re: #1 Alternator
That's what I thought Mike. I guess the alternator in question tried to overcoe the draw on the batteries to keep the starter turning. It might be interesting to know the proper sequence for emergency battery disconnect so that I can install and use the battery disconnect switches in a proper manner. Now that I have the starter problem under control, I may not need to put disconnects on each battery. It might help out in case of some other all-out short in the future though.
That's what I thought Mike. I guess the alternator in question tried to overcoe the draw on the batteries to keep the starter turning. It might be interesting to know the proper sequence for emergency battery disconnect so that I can install and use the battery disconnect switches in a proper manner. Now that I have the starter problem under control, I may not need to put disconnects on each battery. It might help out in case of some other all-out short in the future though.
mangus580
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RE: Re: #1 Alternator
A disconnect on the neg terminal of the front battery should cover you totally. This will cut out ALL 12v and 24v power.
A disconnect on the neg terminal of the front battery should cover you totally. This will cut out ALL 12v and 24v power.
aboonski
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- West Melbourne Florida
Thanks Mike, now I'l only need one disconnect switch instead of two!
mangus580
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yup!
aboonski
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- West Melbourne Florida
Mike! Just wanted to let you know that I found the problem with the alternator. One of the blue wires that must be a fuseable link was roasted half in two. Until I can purchase another one of these, I installed a 30amp Buss fuse and holder just to see if the system would go back up...it did. So....where do I buy one of the replacement fuseable links and what do I ask for in specifics as far as amperage is concerned?
By the way, one of the previous posts regarding a blown link led me right to the problem because it had photos showing what to look for. I don't know how long the present 30amp fuse will last but I had plans to use the truck today until the local Sherriff's Department busted a meth lab a couple of doors down from my house. I'll be stuck here for a while once they bring the hazmat team in to remove all the stuff from the house. Anyway, thanks for all the assistance you and others have provided in getting my CUCV back on the road once again.
Al Broadbent
By the way, one of the previous posts regarding a blown link led me right to the problem because it had photos showing what to look for. I don't know how long the present 30amp fuse will last but I had plans to use the truck today until the local Sherriff's Department busted a meth lab a couple of doors down from my house. I'll be stuck here for a while once they bring the hazmat team in to remove all the stuff from the house. Anyway, thanks for all the assistance you and others have provided in getting my CUCV back on the road once again.
Al Broadbent
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CCATLETT1984
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What is the device that i have circled in the photo?
