Iraq Looks Into Buying 36 Fighting Falcons

[GoldComet6]

I'd prefer we sell them equipment when we know it won't end up across the border in Iran. I just don't know about selling them F-16s and M1A2s.

Could there be F-16 Fighting Falcons in the future of the Iraqi air force?

The Iraqi government asked the Defense Department on Aug. 27 for information on the pricing and availability of three dozen F-16s, said Pentagon spokesman Lt. Col. Patrick Ryder. Iraq and the U.S. are several steps from a formal request to buy the single-engine fighters.

"The U.S. Departments of Defense and State are working closely with Iraq to ensure its military planning is integrated and provides the capabilities Iraq needs to defend itself," Ryder said. "At the same time, we are working to ensure that Iraq has the capacity to play a positive role as a contributor to enhanced security and stability in the region."

Several of Iraq's neighbors already fly F-16s, including Jordan, Turkey, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates, Oman, Israel and Egypt and Pakistan.

The Iraqi air force today does not fly fighters. Today, most of its airplanes are transports - such as three C-130 Hercules donated by the U.S. - or small commercial passenger planes used for reconnaissance and airlift.

At the start of Desert Storm in 1991, the Saddam Hussein-era Iraqi air force had more than 600 French and Soviet-built fighters. Virtually all of them were destroyed, buried in sand or flown to Iran by fall of Hussein in 2003.

Here is the link...
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=3716143&c=AME&s=AIR

 

[Recovry4x4]

We should let them go to Davis Montham and pick out some A-4s. Not too keen on giving up these planes unless we can rig a detonating device in the event they end up in the wrong hands

 

[kcimb]

You're forgetting one thing. They have to buy parts from us. If they piss us off, we withhold the parts, and their planes don't fly. Much like Iran's f-14s, of which very few fly now because they've cannibalized so many of them after 30 or so years.

And Iraq is getting Export model ABrams-not the A2. No chobham, no silver bullet DU round. Probably a diesel like the Australian models.

 

[B3.3T]

M-1A2's are not a problem if things went south. One Hellfire and its toast.

 

[B3.3T]

M-1A2's are not a problem if things went south. One Hellfire and its toast.

 

[kcimb]

Re: RE: Iraq Looks Into Buying 36 Fighting Falcons

M-1A2's are not a problem if things went south. One Hellfire and its toast.

It'll take more than one to put an abrams out of commission. That DU/chobham stuff is tough.

 

[woodwalker]

yes one hellfire with a direct hit puts them in the scrap heep
seen one on fire from headlight to taillights took it in the rear deck
wonder where that came from? hey flyboys?
crew got out relativly unhurt

 

[GoldComet6]

My concern is that selling them them F-16C/Ds and M1s is risky. Any of this equipment can end up in Iran, Russia, North Korea or Syria. Of course so many countries operate and build the F-16 that parts are available from many sources - new or used spares. We may not have a lot of influence over them - unlike the F-14As that only the U.S. Navy operated.

Same goes for the M1A1Ms. Nobody seems to know much about that exact specification but either way they are still going to be based on one of the standard U.S. Army models. I cannot see why they would accept a lesser export model wthout the gas turbine, DU rounds and chobham armor. Without those items it ain't an M1!!

The Iraqi generals have been given demonstrations of standard U.S. Army M1s, and the press releases make no mention of any downgrades. The other nations that use them all use the same basic specifications - many were taken from Army stocks and refurbished like the Australian models. They were not downgraded models but were brought up to newer standards. The other Arab countries use the M1A2 so why would Iraq accept something that's less than the Saudis, Eqyptians, or Kuwaitis? They currently have models similair to the A2 SEP models.

If Egypt builds M1s then they could end up anywhere...but I still don't like the idea of selling our best stuff to them. Sell them upgraded M60s and A4s, A7s or F-16/79s instead. Maybe after the Iraqi government has more time to become stable, then I might be willing to think it is okay.

 

[kcimb]

My concern is that selling them them F-16C/Ds and M1s is risky. Any of this equipment can end up in Iran, Russia, North Korea or Syria. Of course so many countries operate and build the F-16 that parts are available from many sources - new or used spares. We may not have a lot of influence over them - unlike the F-14As that only the U.S. Navy operated.

Same goes for the M1A1Ms. Nobody seems to know much about that exact specification but either way they are still going to be based on one of the standard U.S. Army models. I cannot see why they would accept a lesser export model wthout the gas turbine, DU rounds and chobham armor. Without those items it ain't an M1!!

The Iraqi generals have been given demonstrations of standard U.S. Army M1s, and the press releases make no mention of any downgrades. The other nations that use them all use the same basic specifications - many were taken from Army stocks and refurbished like the Australian models. They were not downgraded models but were brought up to newer standards. The other Arab countries use the M1A2 so why would Iraq accept something that's less than the Saudis, Eqyptians, or Kuwaitis? They currently have models similair to the A2 SEP models.

If Egypt builds M1s then they could end up anywhere...but I still don't like the idea of selling our best stuff to them. Sell them upgraded M60s and A4s, A7s or F-16/79s instead. Maybe after the Iraqi government has more time to become stable, then I might be willing to think it is okay.

Egypt gets kits from the Lima, ohio plant and assembles them there in egypt. They don't get the DU/chobham armor. I think only the AUstralians might, maybe the Kuwaitis?

 

[ssgtwright-usmc]

Im lost here,
Iraq wants to buy US military equipment but yet, I was under the impression that they allready owe the US Billions in dollars for the rebuilding of Iraq!
Does that mean buy selling them US Arms that the Iraqis debt is done and over with.
I am not the brightest on politics but I would think that the US would want our money back first for rebuilding a country then and only then we will send them Military Arms.

 

[roger-wilco-66]

> If they piss us off, we withhold the parts, and their planes don't fly.
> Much like Iran's f-14s, of which very few fly now because they've
> cannibalized so many of them after 30 or so years.

That strategy doesn't work IMHO. Irans F14a (Doug, they bought 79 units!) flew nevertheless, along with the F4, F5 and C130 and other US aircraft and helicopters they operated or are still operating. Look at the hazzle these aircraft were for the Iraqis in the Iran/Iraq war.
The world is a relativly free market, despite embargos and restrictions. In the case of Iran it is interesting to note that the Russians helped to maintain the F14 or even the Israelis supplied parts in exchange for whatever. Someone always steps in if theres a need. The same thing goes for the Iraqis today. They will buy the best their money can get. If the US doesn't supply for whatever reason, the french or the russians will happily fill the gap.

 

[GoldComet6]

Mark…
I certainly agree that an embargo of the F-16 parts would be useless with so many in production and service around the world. My point in referencing the Tomcat was that it was in service only with the U.S. Navy and only produced here and our embargo still did not completely stop them from flying. However it did have a tremendous impact on their operations during 1980-88, afterward and through today. If you’re interested read…Iran-Iraq War in the Air: 1980-1988 by Tom Cooper & Farzad Bishop. It details every sortie and examines the IRIAF efforts to keep the F-14A flying and their air victories. I have always read that Iraq transferred downed F-14s and AIM-54s to the Soviets and not Iran. The IRIAF bought them to prevent over-lights of their airspace by the Soviets and were not on good terms with the Russians (just the opposite). The Iraqis were trying to gather favor, get more financial aid, debts forgiven and more military equipment. They probably both transferred them…..

We certainly agree that someone else will sell them equipment. Plus selling the aircraft and expecting to control them won’t work…look at Pakistan and it’s F-16s. I’m sure the Iraqis would prefer to “Buy American” but would buy from another source if we refuse. They would get offers of a LeClerc/Rafale or T-90/MiG-29 & Su-30 package very quickly I’m sure.

Kcimb…
My intention was not to get into a disagreement over the specs of all M1 Abrams users….in the end my concern is still there.

However…I still have not found any source that states the Saudis, Kuwaitis, and Egyptians do not use the latest armor/rounds. Maybe they don’t but I haven’t found it. The sources I see all refer to them as the same A1 or A2 (or equivalent A1A2S) spec as the Army models without any mention of the DU armor and rounds being deleted. I did find sources that say the DU armor is included - “M1A2 SEP (System Enhancement Package) also with upgraded 3rd generation depleted uranium encased armor with graphite coating - 240 new build, 300 M1A2s upgraded to M1A2SEP for the USA, 250 for Egypt in 2 Egyptian co-production batches of 125 each.” The Egyptians did assemble their tanks from kits at first, but years ago produced about 40% of the components (but not armor) in Egypt. By now I’m sure the percentage is higher and in a few years their plant is supposed to be independent. I could not find anything that indicates whether the Iraqi models will have or won’t have DU added to their chobham armor package or whether it would include DU rounds.

As for the Aussie Abrams models I did find the official Australian press release that states they will not use DU armor or rounds. They are equipped with composite Chobham armor only, and the AGT-1500 gas turbine and not a diesel V12. I’m sure they could have gotten the upgraded armor & rounds, but perhaps the Aussies didn’t want DU for political reasons.

I know we will sell our best to other nations – just look at the F-16E/F Bock 60s used by the UAE. They are probably the most advanced F-16s flying, better in fact than the C/D Block 52s that are the bulk of our own Air Force models. Plus it looks like the UAE is ordering THAAD and Patriots too….again our best stuff!!

My concern is still the same. The Saudis, Kuwaitis, Egyptians and certainly the Australians are more stable than Iraq and they are less likely to “lose” any M1s to an unfriendly nation. Whether the Iraqi models will have or won’t have DU armor/rounds and all of the latest electronic equipment - selling these tanks and F-16s to Iraq is too risky to me. Even a base M1A1 with its fire control and sighting systems, gas turbine power pack and composite chobham armor is a tank Iran would love to examine.

Here are the sources I used, Kcimb please list yours referring the lack of DU armor/munitions. I’d like to compare them and see how they differ.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/egypt-847m-request-for-125-m1a1-tanks-03684/#more-3684

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m1-intro.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/M1-Abrams-Tanks-for-Iraq-05013/

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/digital-abrams-the-m1a2-sep-program-updated-02834/

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-uaes-f-16-block-60-desert-falcon-fleet-04538/

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/egypt-847m-request-for-125-m1a1-tanks-03684/#more-3684

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/abrams.htm

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2006/Saudi Arabia_06-31.pdf

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2008/Iraq_08-98.pdf

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/egypt/m1a1.htm

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams/index.html

http://www.defence.gov.au/minister/Hilltpl.cfm?CurrentId=3643

Specs on Aussie M1s from Australian press release
http://www.defence.gov.au/minister/Hilltpl.cfm?CurrentId=3643

The Encyclopedia of Tanks and Armored Fighting Vehicles by Christopher Foss

 

[kcimb]

Mark…
I certainly agree that an embargo of the F-16 parts would be useless with so many in production and service around the world. My point in referencing the Tomcat was that it was in service only with the U.S. Navy and only produced here and our embargo still did not completely stop them from flying. However it did have a tremendous impact on their operations during 1980-88, afterward and through today. If you’re interested read…Iran-Iraq War in the Air: 1980-1988 by Tom Cooper & Farzad Bishop. It details every sortie and examines the IRIAF efforts to keep the F-14A flying and their air victories. I have always read that Iraq transferred downed F-14s and AIM-54s to the Soviets and not Iran. The IRIAF bought them to prevent over-lights of their airspace by the Soviets and were not on good terms with the Russians (just the opposite). The Iraqis were trying to gather favor, get more financial aid, debts forgiven and more military equipment. They probably both transferred them…..

We certainly agree that someone else will sell them equipment. Plus selling the aircraft and expecting to control them won’t work…look at Pakistan and it’s F-16s. I’m sure the Iraqis would prefer to “Buy American” but would buy from another source if we refuse. They would get offers of a LeClerc/Rafale or T-90/MiG-29 & Su-30 package very quickly I’m sure.

Kcimb…
My intention was not to get into a disagreement over the specs of all M1 Abrams users….in the end my concern is still there.

However…I still have not found any source that states the Saudis, Kuwaitis, and Egyptians do not use the latest armor/rounds. Maybe they don’t but I haven’t found it. The sources I see all refer to them as the same A1 or A2 (or equivalent A1A2S) spec as the Army models without any mention of the DU armor and rounds being deleted. I did find sources that say the DU armor is included - “M1A2 SEP (System Enhancement Package) also with upgraded 3rd generation depleted uranium encased armor with graphite coating - 240 new build, 300 M1A2s upgraded to M1A2SEP for the USA, 250 for Egypt in 2 Egyptian co-production batches of 125 each.” The Egyptians did assemble their tanks from kits at first, but years ago produced about 40% of the components (but not armor) in Egypt. By now I’m sure the percentage is higher and in a few years their plant is supposed to be independent. I could not find anything that indicates whether the Iraqi models will have or won’t have DU added to their chobham armor package or whether it would include DU rounds.

As for the Aussie Abrams models I did find the official Australian press release that states they will not use DU armor or rounds. They are equipped with composite Chobham armor only, and the AGT-1500 gas turbine and not a diesel V12. I’m sure they could have gotten the upgraded armor & rounds, but perhaps the Aussies didn’t want DU for political reasons.

I know we will sell our best to other nations – just look at the F-16E/F Bock 60s used by the UAE. They are probably the most advanced F-16s flying, better in fact than the C/D Block 52s that are the bulk of our own Air Force models. Plus it looks like the UAE is ordering THAAD and Patriots too….again our best stuff!!

My concern is still the same. The Saudis, Kuwaitis, Egyptians and certainly the Australians are more stable than Iraq and they are less likely to “lose” any M1s to an unfriendly nation. Whether the Iraqi models will have or won’t have DU armor/rounds and all of the latestt electronic equipment - selling these tanks and F-16s to Iraq is too risky to me. Even a base M1A1 with its fire control and sighting systems, gas turbine power pack and composite chobham armor is a tank Iran would love to examine.

Here are the sources I used, Kcimb please list yours referring the lack of DU armor/munitions. I’d like to compare them and see how they differ.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/egypt-847m-request-for-125-m1a1-tanks-03684/#more-3684

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m1-intro.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/M1-Abrams-Tanks-for-Iraq-05013/

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/digital-abrams-the-m1a2-sep-program-updated-02834/

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/the-uaes-f-16-block-60-desert-falcon-fleet-04538/

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/egypt-847m-request-for-125-m1a1-tanks-03684/#more-3684

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/abrams.htm

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2006/Saudi Arabia_06-31.pdf

http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2008/Iraq_08-98.pdf

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/egypt/m1a1.htm

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/abrams/index.html

http://www.defence.gov.au/minister/Hilltpl.cfm?CurrentId=3643

Specs on Aussie M1s from Australian press release
http://www.defence.gov.au/minister/Hilltpl.cfm?CurrentId=3643

The Encyclopedia of Tanks and Armored Fighting Vehicles by Christopher Foss

I stand corrected.

The whole reasoning for selling Iraq American weapons is:

1) To make Iraq counter out Iran's influence..Cold war era M60s aren't going to cut it. Neither are scads of obsolete russian stuff.
2) Togive Iraqis the teeth so we don't have to be there
3) To get work for our companies, bringing money to us

I've been told by pretty much everyone that the Iraqis wouldn't get the DU equipped models of the Abrams. That would be the only way that the deal would make sense. It would be lunacy to give them top rated stuff even close to being on par with ours.

They do make something called the m60-2000m. It's an m60 chassis with an m1 turret. Might be a better choice, and we won't have to dump all those m60s out in the ocean.

 

[B3.3T]

There are so many anti-armor missiles available today, some air launched, some ground, that are top-attack, and very capable against ALL tanks, the tank has limited use in the future. An RPV firing a Hellfire or similar, can easily knock out an M-1A2. FACT. Even terrorist groups now have this capability. Just look at the IDF loses in Lebanon.

 

[DanMartin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnPMsT9KLBE

Those Israeli's know their stuff. Can you believe the US armed forces turned this system down?

 

[kcimb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnPMsT9KLBE

Those Israeli's know their stuff. Can you believe the US armed forces turned this system down?

I can't view Youtube from here, but are you referring to the blazer ERA?

 

[kcimb]

There are so many anti-armor missiles available today, some air launched, some ground, that are top-attack, and very capable against ALL tanks, the tank has limited use in the future. An RPV firing a Hellfire or similar, can easily knock out an M-1A2. FACT. Even terrorist groups now have this capability. Just look at the IDF loses in Lebanon.

Yep. Wait till we put DU, Chobham, and ERA ontop of the Abrams turret. Yeah, let's see if they'll go through that. Probably add 3-4 more tons to an already heavy tank, but the ability to survive tank killers cannot be ignored.

 

[B3.3T]

The US has not turned down Trophy. It is still in development and not ready yet. The IDF is not using it yet, either. Hence, their loses in Lebanon.

 

[kcimb]

I wonder what the next evolution of US armor is going to be? The Abrams is going on 30 years pretty soon (Came out in 81/82 or so?). I wonder what will replace it.

 

[emmado22]

The XM1 came out in the late 70's. The several upgrades of the tank make the originals and whats being rebuild in Anniston totally different machines.. They LOOK externally like the XM1's but the guts are totally different. About the only guts that is the same is the drivetrain.. All the electronics and the like are state of the art. Same for the M2 Bradleys vs the M2A3's that are out there now..

I was at NTC in the draw yard, saw a Bradley with serial # 00006. it was very primitaive as compared to what we were using in 2000. One of my NCO's called it "going back in time"

Bottom line, the chassis are going to be around for a LONG time, as they just keep upgrading the internals. Look at the M60, that got up to the A6 version before it got retired and replaced by the M1.