Just spitballing...winching out your own deuce while alone.

M35fan

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I hesitated to reply to this post because my deuce does not have a winch, and I have zero experience with PTO driven winches. However, the use and care of the Garwood winch has been addressed by more experienced folks now. And I do have experience with electric winches and snatch blocks. We use both electric and hydraulic winches often at my job, which is with a right-of-way crew at an electric co-op. Just yesterday we had to winch out a stuck Bobcat T870 skid steer, which weighs roughly 13,000 pounds. We used a 12V warn winch rated at 15K mounted on the front of a Chevy 1 ton pickup. With the truck on solid ground, and the Bobcat's front end loader pushing backwards to assist, we managed to get it out. Barely.
Electric winches will work in a pinch, but they are not nearly as strong as a PTO or hydraulic winch and I have serious doubts about their lifespan.
I'm confused about your mounting system. I have always seen winches permanently mounted to the frame in some way. Could you explain the "removable" winch mount? Also I don't understand the four mount points. Do you intend to drag your truck sideways to get it unstuck?
Thank you for asking questions. There are many other people with the same questions who want to learn and can benefit from the answers you receive.
 

Aussie Bloke

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G'day everyone,.....

I guess I just don't know enough about winches. I took the 5t rating of our winches quite literally. My truck weighs around 7t now (modifications) and when I'm done with it, I expect it'll weight over 8 maybe 9. Why is the winch rated at 5t if it could haul even the stock truck up a tree?

The rating on the winch refers to what it can do on a single line pull on the FIRST row of cable on the drum.

Each consecutive row increases the radius thus decreasing the pulling force.

Yes it is possible to use the winch by ones self but SOP is the winch is a 2 person operation.



Aussie.
 

Recovry4x4

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I wrote that into SS a while back, I wonder now where I got that at. Can't remember if it had to do with snatch blocks or not. I also remember the one that says to open the hood also on a pull so when cable lets go one doesn't get killed.
I might have read that in TM 9-8022. I tend to read alot of the older TMs.
 

montaillou

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Could you explain the "removable" winch mount? Also I don't understand the four mount points. Do you intend to drag your truck sideways to get it unstuck?
As I think about it (and I'm just thinking so, if someone wants to explain why it won't work that would be good to know), I would store the electric winch in the truck. If I get stuck, I would use a cable to connect the winch to a tree or whatever I'm using to act as the anchor, then another cable with probably some sort of pulley (or series of) to attach the winch to the truck. I have 3 12v batteries in my battery box, so I could pull one of these to power the winch.

I only intend to pull the truck whichever direction I need to. My point being that life doesn't always line things up perfectly and if the only place to hook a winch to necessitates pulling the truck sideways, then that's what I'm gonna have to do. I've also wondered about what it would take to create a land anchor or anchors that would work with something like 9 tons. Ground achors get pretty pricey, maybe just stakes, a sledge or these turned into the ground with a long iron rod. The specific auger in the pic is a little small, maybe something a little beefier or I could use 5 or 6 of them.



This system is only intended for the rare occasion in which I get stuck. I wouldn't buy the cheapest winch, but I don't care about a long cool down as this thing will sit in storage most of it's life and only used rarely.
 
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G744

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A reverse pull is simple. Take your shovel off the pioneer tool rack, and start digging. Under the truck, from front to rear to run the cable.

Been there, done that. In gloppy mud, BTW.

A sideways pull is tricky without a level-wind attachment. Some 5-tons have them, never seen one on a G742 chassis.

If you need a good ground anchor, just dig a big, deep hole and bury the spare tire. It works (and so will you). BTDT too.

Another part of the charm of driving a tactical truck.

DG
 

cattlerepairman

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So many questions relate to basic winch operation. I do not want to "hijack" the thread, rather start at a level where even less experienced operators can join in.


To get comfortable with the winch, I would suggest:


If you have never operated the winch before, my recommendation would be to check the winch over, before you do anything else.

1) drum lock - engage/disengage
2) winch clutch - engage-disengage; does the flip lock work?
3) can you pull wire off; does the winch drum freespool?
4) open the fill ports and check for/add lubricant (gear oil is fine; will likely leak out over time; many use cornhead grease)
5) check shear pin (so you know where it is, check the fact that it is a shear pin and not a bolt, and how to replace it)

As my first winch exercise I would do what the operator in the video was doing. Hook up to a tree, unlock the winch and free-spool off 30 ft or so of winch cable by slowly backing up. Then shut the truck OFF.
Check the winch cable for defects (always wear gloves when handling steel cable). Engage the winch clutch and get into the cab. Familiarise yourself with the in-cab controls. Flip up the lock and move the PTO lever into each detent so you know what it "feels" like. Put lever back in neutral (mental note: you THINK you put it in neutral; don't rely on it; check when you start the truck - let go of the clutch slowly).

Before you use the in-cab controls for real to winch the truck towards the tree, go through the motions of what to to when something goes wrong. Step on the clutch pedal to break power transfer to the winch and hit the brake to stop the truck. Actually DO it.

Now I would start the truck and winch the truck towards the tree, at low winch speed, as he did in the video. Keep the winch cable as close to centre line as possible so it layers nicely and always keep tension on the cable. It is better to do this with two people; one watching from a distance outside.

DO NOT attempt to winch up the final yards of the cable without a spotter and, again, be sure you can stop the winch in the blink of an eye.

Always maintain a healthy respect for the winch and its power, and the energy stored in a winch cable that is under tension.



As for using the winch for self-recovery:
- The front-mounted winch is great for pulling out others. It is less ideal to get yourself out because it requires the truck to travel further into the direction where it got stuck in the first place. That does not always work out well.

- The winch has no level wind and is therefore not happy with angle pulls. Yes, in an emergency there are the guide plates on each side of the drum that provide a rounded edge for the wire rope to pass over, but you will likely still damage the wire rope if the load is high. The wire rope will also cut right into the guide plate. Ask me how I know that.

- When pulling at a sharp angle, you will also discover that the winch is quite happy rolling your truck over, rather than pulling the front end around.

- I am not sure additional attachment points on the truck are needed/would help. You have the attachment points you need for a straight-ish forward pull.

- Rollers underneath the truck that allow the winch cable to be run out the back would be an improvement of the winching capability. I know people have simply done that in a real pinch, damage be damned, just to prevent the truck from becoming one with nature in the middle of nowhere. But that is not ideal.

- Mounting a 17.5k lbs electric winch beween the frame rails in the rear would be the better upgrade, IMHO. Ideas available on this site, including a practically stealth mounting option.




I have self-recovered many times, also with my Deuce. My principle at this point is, slow and deliberate is fast. I try and avoid getting into more trouble by thinking things through, selecting the right anchor points, being methodical - like the list I made above. If I am alone, using a mechanical winch that can impart deadly forces and I get hurt because I am hurrying or not paying attention, I just stacked the deck hard against me.

Whether the wheel speed matches the winch speed does not matter when you are stuck. The winch will pull at the speed it pulls, changing with engine rpm, which cable layer you are on and at half of that speed if you run a snatch block for load reduction. The tires will spin, grab momentarily, spin again....no way and no need for any of this to be coordinated. As long as the forces work in the same direction, keep your fingers crossed.
 
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V8srfun

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The important part is to learn the ins and outs of the winch operation. When you operate the winch on one of these trucks it only takes one mistake to cause serious property damage, bodily damage, or worse.

these winches are supposed to be operated from in the cab you can not do anything with the outside controls when the winch is under load. Please read all the information you can on how to operate your winch and also watch what Videos you can find.

don’t forget that winch components are consumable and not intended to be life time service components. If your cable has a kink replace it. If your chain has any signs of deformation replace it.
 

cattlerepairman

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@montaillou You like to think outside the box. I like and admire that. Your idea about a portable winch is interesting. When you pull the truck sideways, it is because the thing is sunk and stuck. The additional force required to overcome the drag of sand or mud with wheels sunk in to the hub or deeper is considerable.
When you watch TV towing/recovery shows, notice how they use two or three 30t/50t wreckers on one 30t semi. Being sunk to the top of the wheels adds 100% of the weight to the pulling force needed.
There is an app called "Wreckmaster" (a free version is available) that calculates this for you, also the effect of an incline.

I fear that you will find that pulling a sunk 7t truck sideways will make the portable winch crap some electrons. Plus, you do not want to be at the edge of the performance envelope of the winch when you barely get started. Your back might also pop a disc or two, depending on how much block and tackle material you get to move.

Now, almost everything can be overcome by sufficient lengths of cable, enough sheaves, D-rings chains and straps rated for the forces that you will create, and a clear plan of how to assemble a pulley system. Then most all things can be moved slowly and steadily.

There is also a point where I would ask whether it is worth it and call a recovery truck with a suitably sized set of winches.
 

Guyfang

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The reply had unintended consequences. When I read it, I read if you don't know your truck inside out, you shouldn't have one. Reminded me of other times in my life when people have said, if you don't get it the first time, quit. It's also reminded me of other times on this board when people have told me I shouldn't consider doing something. I'm also reminded of talks I've had with others in this hobby who feel intimidated not to ask questions for fear of looking foolish.

Maybe you misunderstood Dmetalmik a bit. He is a soldier. Soldiers tend to believe in doing things the soldier way. We do a lot of training. Almost EVERYTHING in the Army needs a license to be operated. Almost everything. So sometimes when we read a post, we tend to say, or write just what was written in post #10. Its not meant to be ugly. It helps to understand that some of us have seen folks hurt, and killed because of not KNOWING the equipment. Lots of folks here in SS just flat out will not read the book. Not saying that's you. But lots of folks. And rule number one in my shop was always the oft quoted line, "The only stupid question, is the one not asked." And you are doing that. That's good. There is no one to force you to read the book here, unlike where we got our education. A large mean fellow made me spend 20 hours backing a trailer up, before he signed off on my DA Form 348, (listing of equipment one is licensed to operate.) And we spent 3 days on a field exercise winching. Every conceivable thing in the unit, out of mud. Tipped on its side. Up hill. Down hill. I am sure you get the point I am driving at. It horrifies us when we read about folks not KNOWING the equipment, and using it. His intent was not to insult you. Maybe to goad you to get better informed, but not to insult you. And he was a whole lot nicer about it then the large mean fellow who wore me out in the 70's with training. Later, 20 years later, I was that large mean man teaching the young guys the RIGHT way, because you only have to look into the eyes of someone dead or badly hurt just one time, to know why.
 

Mullaney

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The reply had unintended consequences. When I read it, I read if you don't know your truck inside out, you shouldn't have one. Reminded me of other times in my life when people have said, if you don't get it the first time, quit. It's also reminded me of other times on this board when people have told me I shouldn't consider doing something. I'm also reminded of talks I've had with others in this hobby who feel intimidated not to ask questions for fear of looking foolish.

Maybe you misunderstood Dmetalmik a bit. He is a soldier. Soldiers tend to believe in doing things the soldier way. We do a lot of training. Almost EVERYTHING in the Army needs a license to be operated. Almost everything. So sometimes when we read a post, we tend to say, or write just what was written in post #10. Its not meant to be ugly. It helps to understand that some of us have seen folks hurt, and killed because of not KNOWING the equipment. Lots of folks here in SS just flat out will not read the book. Not saying that's you. But lots of folks. And rule number one in my shop was always the oft quoted line, "The only stupid question, is the one not asked." And you are doing that. That's good. There is no one to force you to read the book here, unlike where we got our education. A large mean fellow made me spend 20 hours backing a trailer up, before he signed off on my DA Form 348, (listing of equipment one is licensed to operate.) And we spent 3 days on a field exercise winching. Every conceivable thing in the unit, out of mud. Tipped on its side. Up hill. Down hill. I am sure you get the point I am driving at. It horrifies us when we read about folks not KNOWING the equipment, and using it. His intent was not to insult you. Maybe to goad you to get better informed, but not to insult you. And he was a whole lot nicer about it then the large mean fellow who wore me out in the 70's with training. Later, 20 years later, I was that large mean man teaching the young guys the RIGHT way, because you only have to look into the eyes of someone dead or badly hurt just one time, to know why.
Guyfang,

You are 100% correct. There is a reason and the high cost of learning the hard way was explained really well!

---

Recovry4x4,

Agreed! Those TM's can be dry and not very exciting as you said. But as you said - they are a great resource!

.
 

montaillou

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There is also a point where I would ask whether it is worth it and call a recovery truck with a suitably sized set of winches.
For sure there comes a point where one needs to admit it's time to throw in the towel and call a pro. I have a fantasy (not that kind, sickos :p) concerning this truck. I want to take it on a world trip, to drive the outback in Australia, to trace the Mongol Rally course across Europe/Asia. Not exactly a certainty, but I think there's a 1 in 4 chance I can make this work. So, I've been setting my truck up to live in and thinking about what situations might crop up. And if the truck breaks down, unrepairable, in Mongolia say, I can face the adventure of getting back home without it.

I recently took a fall and opened a gash on my leg. This made me think what it would take if I didn't live 10 min away from a hospital, with an aid car a cell call away. I can't prepare for everything, but I can prepare for alot, and I can even prepare for things I won't know how to deal with until they crop up.

The first plan is a 6 mo to year trip around the US/Canada to see how the truck does, and if it survives. It's hard to get that far from civilization in the continental US.

If I get stuck up the axles in mud, maybe I can use shovels and clear some of the mud away, maybe I can use a land anchor and winch out backwards. Maybe I should skip going this way, if I can and find another way around.

Pic is from the Silk Road Race. Now, I'm not saying my truck would compete, I just want to drive some of the route.
 

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Mullaney

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For sure there comes a point where one needs to admit it's time to throw in the towel and call a pro. I have a fantasy (not that kind, sickos :p) concerning this truck. I want to take it on a world trip, to drive the outback in Australia, to trace the Mongol Rally course across Europe/Asia. Not exactly a certainty, but I think there's a 1 in 4 chance I can make this work. So, I've been setting my truck up to live in and thinking about what situations might crop up. And if the truck breaks down, unrepairable, in Mongolia say, I can face the adventure of getting back home without it.

I recently took a fall and opened a gash on my leg. This made me think what it would take if I didn't live 10 min away from a hospital, with an aid car a cell call away. I can't prepare for everything, but I can prepare for alot, and I can even prepare for things I won't know how to deal with until they crop up.

The first plan is a 6 mo to year trip around the US/Canada to see how the truck does, and if it survives. It's hard to get that far from civilization in the continental US.

If I get stuck up the axles in mud, maybe I can use shovels and clear some of the mud away, maybe I can use a land anchor and winch out backwards. Maybe I should skip going this way, if I can and find another way around.

montaillou,

I think you may have hit on a really good something to consider...

It seems to me that there are two different kinds of drivers.

Type 1: The driver who attempts to navigate anything. Mud, no problem. Water up to the doors, no problem. The person who sees a big mess and drives through it because they want to. Doesn't matter if they get stuck... Most of the time there are more (just ahead or behind) like them who will help figure a way out of the "bog" and will also help others of "like mind".

Type 2: The driver who will drive AROUND the sloppy wet mess to avoid getting stuck. The driver who sees the "water hazard" and gets out to investigate how deep the water is, see that it is deeper than they should ford and drive around. This particular driver generally is prepared to get themselves out of a mess. They also spend time improving their truck rather than repairing it.

In both cases, BOTH drivers would help another. Both have great fun and hopefully get home in one piece. Truck and Driver. One way is a lot more expensive than the other. Just need to decide for yourself what YOU want to do when that first mud pit shows up in front of your truck.


:cool:
 

V8srfun

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If you want to see what kind of things happen to well intended operators that dont how to properly operate YouTube machine fails or heavy equipment fails. You will see endless clips of horrible accidents that could have been avoided with some training
 

davidb56

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montaillou,

I think you may have hit on a really good something to consider...

It seems to me that there are two different kinds of drivers.

Type 1: The driver who attempts to navigate anything. Mud, no problem. Water up to the doors, no problem. The person who sees a big mess and drives through it because they want to. Doesn't matter if they get stuck... Most of the time there are more (just ahead or behind) like them who will help figure a way out of the "bog" and will also help others of "like mind".

Type 2: The driver who will drive AROUND the sloppy wet mess to avoid getting stuck. The driver who sees the "water hazard" and gets out to investigate how deep the water is, see that it is deeper than they should ford and drive around. This particular driver generally is prepared to get themselves out of a mess. They also spend time improving their truck rather than repairing it.

In both cases, BOTH drivers would help another. Both have great fun and hopefully get home in one piece. Truck and Driver. One way is a lot more expensive than the other. Just need to decide for yourself what YOU want to do when that first mud pit shows up in front of your truck.


:cool:
And type 3: the driver (me) who lets You go first. If you get stuck, I'll help you do whatever it takes to get you out while teasing you about getting stuck. Because sometimes its still fun, unless something breaks.
 

montaillou

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If you want to see what kind of things happen to well intended operators that dont how to properly operate YouTube machine fails or heavy equipment fails. You will see endless clips of horrible accidents that could have been avoided with some training
Thanks I'll be sure to crawl into my cocoon and never come out. Would you like to buy my truck, my cars and my house? Life is so full of perils, why bother trying to live it.
 

charlesmann

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Thanks I'll be sure to crawl into my cocoon and never come out. Would you like to buy my truck, my cars and my house? Life is so full of perils, why bother trying to live it.
You evidently cant handle constructive criticism and advise on how not to kill yourself by not know how to operate your equipment.

I watched a vid of a guy that, without knowing how to operate his new to him toy, not training, not certificate, balls up his helicopter. It can be heard, a person/friend telling him he needs training before attempting to solo. His response was, its mine, i’ll teach myself to help save money.

Advice free, medical bill and or funerals are costly
 

montaillou

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You evidently cant handle constructive criticism and advise on how not to kill yourself by not know how to operate your equipment.
Telling someone the world is full of people doing stupid things and dying is not constructive. Some people here have linked videos that show the operation of the winch - that is being constructive. I still like the idea of using a portable winch so I can see what I'm doing. Others have noted that pulling the winch cable and hooking it around parts of the truck might not be the best way to run the cable. I have said before that life doesn't always give you the opportune situation in which to winch out your truck. Perhaps you live a truly charmed life or perhaps I do in that by living I haven't died a gruesome death yet - nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I have spent countless months alone traveling. Some people could point to studies and news stories how people end up dead doing this. However for every person that ends up dead traveling, thousands or even millions do not. Ever seen the video "Truck tire out of F*cking nowhere"? Think that guy broke his arm, just minding his business pumping gas.

Sure the world is a harsh place. Noted. Yours are not the first words I've read on this board about how what I'm planning on doing is stupid or dangerous.

People who want to insult me by guessing my age or heritage can go F themselves.


Moderator, please lock this thread.
 
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Guyfang

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Now, there are several problems with this, as things stand. Feel free to correct me:

1) the winch just isn't powerful enough to pull out deuce

and

2) the way it operates in front of the truck, you'd probably kill yourself if it did - not sure if you can fully use the winch from inside the truck, I suppose you can, but it's still a bit tricky.

So, what do people think of an emergency electric winch? Electric winches often have a long cool down, rated to be used to haul something like 10T or more. And have cab controls. I'm picturing something that can be removed and stored, and only brought out when you actually get stuck.

Is the area where the current winch is located (for those that have one) a suitable place for something like this, or would the structure need to be shored up or another location used? Maybe create attachment points directed to the frame and store the cable to make this connection to the winch?
I think its time to go back to the first post, and start again. By now, Montaillou and certainly I, have gotten the drift. Get smart on your equipment. And Its time now to go forward. So lets try that now. OK?
 
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