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Legal issues with transporting "troops" in a Deuce

kc8sfq

New member
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Southern Mich.
We have been stopped at the our big fall trail ride and told that no one may ride in the back of our MV's on the road. This is a recent law passed here in the People's Republic of Michuniga.
This was brought on a couple of years ago when a truck load of undocumented citizens (illegal aliens) crashed. At one time one officer told us that if we had the side curtains down, the
rear passengers were restrained and it was OK. Better to not carry people in back on raod. it's just less hassle considering that cops on the side of the road have the power to make up
what they don't know and court time to sort it out is expensive, even if you win.
 

tamangel

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Nor Cal Coast
I was searching by key words: passenger..truck..seating..etc.. What came up, I attempted to sift through for what this guy is asking.. Alot came up on CDL's and Commercial ops.. I couldn't find anything that approached 'over 10 passengers' other than Commercial Ops stuff.. Or bus driver... that's where and why it was posted..Anyone else care to do a search..go for it.. I suspect, as I mentioned, the local State guys (unless you maybe find a commercial inspector-he would maybe know both sides of the issue) may not know the sections affected as outside their normal sphere of enforcement..

a good LEO only writes tickets he/she can defend in court..Sounds like you-all run into the opposite regularly..

Mike
 

Jake0147

Member
782
18
18
Location
Panton, VT
Most states will preclude riding in the back of a truck. Some will not. If you're taking fuel money even as a reimbursement, precident says they're gonna classify you as commercial. If you're crossing state lines, that's gonna make you responsible to state AND federal regulations. You're gonna need licensing, insurance, safety standards (some of which in the case of people movers have been retroactive, meaning the way it was made wasn't good enough).

The answer for in state only use comes from the state DMV. Research the laws, but also ask the commisioner (or other head of the department) for their interpretation in writing. Precident and interpretation will trump actual dictionary definitions, as many of the wordings have assigned definitions elsewhere in state law.
 

DDoyle

Well-known member
Supporting Vendor
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Location
West Tennessee
My .02,
Your insurance carrier's written opinion is one of the keys. The other keys are how good are your maintenance and driving skills. You are trusting a dozen lives to the single-circuit brake system - because as pointed out the only crash protection is your skill. The truck was designed specifically to haul passengers in the back, which can be documented voluminously. In 1949 when it was designed the criteria didn't say "only GIs in time of war". If your truck was delivered prior to 1968 it predates the Federal motor vehicle standards.

LEOs have a tough way of it with ever-changing laws on a myriad of subjects. However, I've encounted at least one who tried to interpret his opinon as "the law". (He wanted to cite me for not having a rear view mirror inside the cab). After a bit of heated discussion I instructed him to write the citation and we'd meet in court, but I was through listening to his lecture - and by the way he needed to stop every semi that passed by 'cause none of them were so equipped.

As Simon Cowel would say, "I'm not trying to be rude..." but these guys are paid to enforce the law (i.e. write tickets), not interpret the laws or write tickets.

Do your research, and if the law in your state (as in Tennessee) says no passengers in areas of vehicles not designed to haul passengers, print it out, do your PM and load them up. If you get pulled over, show the LEO your documentation, and if that does not satisfy, show it to the judge.

Regards,
David Doyle
 

Mackfire68

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ENOLA, PA
School buses don't have seat belts because the seats are designed to obsorb the impact (compartization - remember the old school buses with low back seats and metal bars? New buses have high paded seats that are closer together). If someone was wearing a seat belt and was involved in a crash, thay would be flung forward into the seat in front of them and possibly break their necks. And beside, who would assume the legal respobcibility if the person wasn't properly wearing his or her seat belt. In PA. you need a CDL license to haul 16 or more people, I'm sure you would be exempt for a parade or similar event. I agree with the other posts, check with the local police, but I don't think ithey will give you an answer. Can you contact your state DOT? PA. has a number to call for questions just like this.
 

B3.3T

Well-known member
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Location
SW Ohio
16 & 17 year olds ARE kids, in any state. Any of your gaming activities places you and your adult friends at risk from their parents. REGARDLESS of any waiver they may sign. A lost eye, or much less, its your ass. Also, any type of emotional or sexual abuse claims, its your ass. Their sex has nothing to do with it. They are NOT your peers, they are minors, and you are responsible.
 

willey10

Member
100
7
18
Location
Harrington Maine
I am pretty sure my policy says no riders in the back.(JC Taylor) but I unofficially take about 15 or so scouts with at least 2 adults in the back of my M35A2 around to put flags on about 400 veterans graves for memorial day, I always get thumbs up, but one accident and better call your lawyer.
 

Stan Leschert

New member
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Location
North Vancouver, BC, Canada
Don't want to be a wet blanket, but up here DND has a very simple policy. Troops will not be transported on public roads for more than 10 Klicks (less than 4 miles) unless they are in a commercial transport vehicle (IE: BUS). On DND property or leased training areas, there are no such restricions, providing that the operator has a current DND 404 (liscence) for that pattern of vehicle. I might asume that down south , where you have more lawyers than we have stupid politicians, things might be a wee bit tighter. It's your insurance, so take care.
 

Brian Thomas

New member
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Location
West Jordan Utah.
Here in Utah, it is a farming state. You can haul people in the bed of a truck! With no seats or belts. No one riding can sit on the rail of the bed.
I have seen land scape companys hauling "imigrant workers" in the back of trucks on the free way of all places. I asked a buddy of mine that is a highway cop about this. He informed me of the farming code and that as long as the people in the back are not on the rail of the bed it was fine, even on the free way. Go figure.
 

fuzzytoaster

Well-known member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
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Location
Fort Worth, Texas
I cant comment on your area specifically, but in Texas everyone in the bed of a truck must now be buckled up. With the size of the vehicle and number of persons (assuming you intend to haul the max allowable) you may have to get your class B with passenger endorsement. I have it (and a few others) and it will allow me to do it with any vehicle within reason. As for the chauffeurs thing, yes you will require one if your accepting payment in anyway, and probably have to registure as a commercial vehicle.

I too will be using my M35A2 for airsoft-milsim in addition to other things. But as long as you keep your wheels on private property, and get passengers to sign a waver, you shouldnt have too many problems. Insurance may have other things in mind.
 

dabtl

Active member
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Location
Denton, Texas
We carry people in the back only in parades, these are on public streets at about 3 miles per hour, and at times put children in the rear for a loop around a farm tank at extremely slow speeds with adults supervising them. If I were an insurance company asked about hauling even adults on public roads in a deuce, the policy cancellation would be the reply.

Liability would be in the extreme it would seem to me.
 

Scarecrow1

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Florence , S.C.
Not to sound like a smart butt .call the DMV of your state and ask them to fax or mail you the rules that apply to your situation .It's the only way to play it safe and win......:razz:
 

cten

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Georgetown/MA
You could install 16 seatbelts in the rear for about $200.00 bucks yourself. It will take out a few hours to do so. I really try to not carry anyone in back unless it is a special event like a parade or going back and forth from a 4th of July fireworks event. Scouts are not even suppose to be in a vehicle unless there are restraints. I've traveled 150 miles with 16 in the back and 3 in the front with the cover down and seatbelts buckled. It was tough enough even with the 6" sense foam cushions I had made for the troop seats.

IMO, no seat belts in the back is better... I'd rather be thrown from the vehicle and lets face it... who travels 80 plus miles an hour in their truck. It is more like 30-40 on side roads and 53 on the highway. Less chance of you getting in an accident than someone hitting you. I think the duece would go through them and push the other vehicle out of the way.

I know I do not drive like a nut in the truck in fear that I'm going to kill some fool that pulls out in front of me. My concern is for their well being.
 

Snarky

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Brazosport, TX
The deuce's passenger capacity for a normal truck is 14 I believe. That's below the requirements for calling something a bus I believe. Also you can't accept any money for the transport, not even diesel money, as that would make it a commercial enterprise. Next the truck is under 26000# with hydraulic brakes.

If i were going to let anyone ride in the back of the deuce, I'da make sure they had at least one person with an intercom that can talk to the driver, incase of emergencies. Although, I'da make sure I had good liability. If you roll the deuce, you're dead too so I wouldn't worry about that too much. I'da mostly worry about some seat belts.

Just make sure you carry less people than what makes you a bus and you're good. The bed of the deuce is designed for passengers, unlike a pickup. There are seats, there is a back bar, it's a lot like riding in the back of a windy land rover defender. If you had lap belts that would stop folks from bouncing out of it. All you need then is for them to be able to talk to the driver, so they can tell you when they have to pee or when one of them falls out the rear.

Here's the Texas Law, your mileage may vary.

"V.T.C.A., Transportation Code 545.414. Riding in Open Beds; Offense
(a) A person commits an offense if the person operates an open-bed pickup truck or an open flatbed truck or draws an open flatbed trailer when a child younger than 18 years of age is occupying the bed of the truck or trailer."


My truck's bed isn't open, it's covered, therefore I would need to comply with seatbelt law, and seatbelt law says seatbelts added on to a vehicle count the same as OEM equipment. My passengers would be 18+, if there was a 17 year old he would be in the cab. More than one? Tough.
 
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saddamsnightmare

Well-known member
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Location
Abilene, Texas
December 11th, 2009.

How about DUKW's? Frequently they are used by tour companies, no doubt with a CDL equipped driver ( and I presume STCW licensed Master), but they are but little different from the deuce except for the boat hull.;-)
Just curious. Also we should consider getting the exemptions passed here in Texas for parade use, although they carry them on duallie trailers behind pickups and call them floats:p.

Cheers,

Kyle F. McGrogan
 

m16ty

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I have noticed when hauling kids that it is very easy for a small child to fall through the space in the back of the troop seats. I would recommend that anybody hauling children cover the hole in the seat back or have very strict adult supervision.
 

paulfarber

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December 11th, 2009.

How about DUKW's? Frequently they are used by tour companies, no doubt with a CDL equipped driver ( and I presume STCW licensed Master), but they are but little different from the deuce except for the boat hull.;-)
Just curious. Also we should consider getting the exemptions passed here in Texas for parade use, although they carry them on duallie trailers behind pickups and call them floats:p.

Cheers,

Kyle F. McGrogan
Those tour ducks are hulls only. Nothing DUKW exists in them save the hull and running gear. Seat belts, ADA complaint, USCG inspected etc etc etc.

Its neat the the DUKWs are still going.. it sad that they were gutted to have to do it.
 

swiss

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This information is current as of March 2014,

Link to a summary of the laws as collected by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/laws/cargoareas

StateRestrictions on riding in cargo areasWho is not covered
Alabamano state lawno state law
Alaskano state lawno state law
Arizonano state lawno state law
Arkansasyes[SUP]1[/SUP]employees on duty; people within bodies of trucks in a space intended for merchandise
Californiayesif the person is restrained by a federally approved restraint system; farmer owned vehicle used exclusively within farming land or 1 mile of highway between 1 part to another; parade if not more than 8 miles per hour; emergency situations
Coloradoyespeople sitting in the cargo area if it is fully or partially enclosed on all 4 sides
Connecticutyespeople 16 and older; people 15 and younger if belted; parades; farming operations; hayrides August through December
Delawareno state lawno state law
District of Columbiayes[SUP]1[/SUP]employees on duty; people riding within truck bodies in a space intended for materials
Floridayesall persons 18 and older; persons 17 and younger in an enclosed cargo area; persons 17 and younger on non-limited-access roads unless local law exempts them from the prohibition on minors riding the cargo areas of pickup trucks and flatbeds; persons 17 and younger on non-limited-access roads in a seat fitted with a safety belt that has been added to the pickup or flatbed; employees on duty
Georgiayespeople 18 and older; people 17 and younger in pickup trucks with covered cargo areas; any pickup truck off the interstate
Hawaiiyespeople may ride in back of pickup trucks if there are no available seats in the cab and the side racks and tailgate are securely closed, and the passengers are seated on the floor and do not attempt to unlash cargo; also exempts life threatening emergencies; parades; employees on duty
Idahono state lawno state law
Illinoisno state lawno state law
Indianano state lawno state law
Iowano state lawno state law
Kansasyespeople 14 and older; parades; employment; does not apply to vehicles not being operated in the state highway system or within the corporate limits of a city
Kentuckyno state lawno state law
Louisianayespeople 12 and older if the truck is being moved on a non-interstate highway; parades moving less than 15 mph; emergencies if the child is with an adult in the cargo area; emergencies while moving on an interstate highway
Maineyespeople 19 and older; agricultural workers and hunters 18 and younger; parades; and people in OEM installed seats outside passenger compartment
Marylandyespeople 16 and older; people 15 and younger if the vehicle is traveling 25 mph or less; employees being transported to work sites or people engaged in farming operations; exceptions do not eliminate requirement to use child restraint or belts; inapplicable to pickup trucks with covered cargo areas
Massachusettsyespeople 12 and older; people 11 and younger if the vehicle is being driven less than 5 miles and less than 5 mph; parades; farming activities
Michiganyes18 and older; 17 and younger if the vehicle is moving 15 mph or less; parades; military vehicles; emergency situations; farming; construction
Minnesotano state lawno state law
Mississippino state lawno state law
Missouriyespeople 18 and older; people 17 and younger if the vehicle is not being operated on a highway which is part of the state or federal highway system or within the corporate limits of any city; exceptions for employment; agricultural activities; parades; where there is a device to keep the passenger from being thrown or falling out of the vehicle; special events; assisting people in a recreational activity; family owned truck with insufficient room in the cab for all passengers; inapplicable to pickup trucks with covered cargo areas
Montanano state lawno state law
Nebraskayespeople age 18 or older; parades
Nevadayespeople age 18 or older; people younger than 18 when the vehicle is used in farming or ranching or if vehicle is used in an authorized parade; vehicles operated on unpaved roads; people riding in areas enclosed by a camper shell
New Hampshireno state lawno state law
New Jerseyyesemployees engaged in their duties
New Mexicoyespeople 18 and older
New Yorkyesinapplicable to trips of 5 miles or less; inapplicable to trips of more than 5 miles if one-third or less of the passengers are standing or if suitable seats are securely attached and there are side rails and a tailgate; inapplicable to trips of more than 5 miles if there are less than 5 persons 17 or younger in the cargo area or if at least one person 18 or older is in the cargo area
North Carolinayespeople 16 and older; persons 15 and younger if a supervising adult is present in the cargo area; when the child is belted; emergencies; parades; vehicle being used in agriculture; vehicles with permanent overhead structures
North Dakotano state lawno state law
Ohioyespeople 16 and older; people 15 and younger if the vehicle is driven less than 25 mph or if the person is seated and belted in an OEM seating position; emergencies; inapplicable to pickup trucks with covered cargo areas
Oklahomano state lawno state law
Oregonyespeople 18 and older; minors secured with a safety belt or harness; parades; minors seated on the floor of the open bed of a motor vehicle in which all available passenger seats are occupied by minors, the tailgate is securely closed and the minor is being transported either in the course and scope of employment or between a hunting camp and hunting site or between hunting sites during hunting season and the minor has a hunting license
Pennsylvaniayespeople 18 and older if the vehicle is traveling less than 35 mph; inapplicable to occupants 17 and younger if the cargo area is enclosed; parades, hunting, and farm operations
Rhode Islandyespeople 16 and older; people 15 and younger who are secured in the cargo area
South Carolinayespeople 15 and older; people 15 and younger when an adult is present; when the child is belted; parade; emergency situation; agricultural activities; hunting; vehicle has a secured metal tailgate and operated less than 36 mph; vehicle operated in county
South Dakotano state lawno state law
Tennesseeyespeople 12 and older; people 6-11 in a vehicle being operated off the interstate or state highway system; parades if vehicle going less than 20 mph; agricultural activities; or on city or county roads unless prohibited by local ordinance or resolution
Texasyespeople 18 and older; vehicles that are the only vehicles owned by members of the household; vehicles in parades, hay rides, or on beaches, or being used in an emergency; vehicles in farm operations used to transport people from field to field or on farm
Utahyes[Cargo ]off highway operation; employees performing their duties; people riding in a vehicle space that is intended for any load
Vermontno state lawno state law
Virginiayespeople 16 and older; farmers when crossing a highway to go from field to field
Washingtonno state lawno state law
West Virginiano state lawno state law
Wisconsinyes[SUP]1[/SUP]inapplicable to enclosed areas; farm operations; parades; deer hunting; employees; people riding in truck bodies in spaces intended for merchandise
Wyomingno state lawno state law
 
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