Locker vs Limited slip in front axle of m1008

[rchalmers3]

When I want the front axle locked, I want to flip a switch and feel it pull. When the obstacle is conquered I want to turn it off in order to have my steering control back.

For me, an air locker is the way to go, especially if you already are fitted with on board air. Lockers and a compressor with reserve tank are standard upgrades on my wheeling rigs.

if you shop the venders on Pirate 4x4 for lockers, you cost will be a few hunsey more than other options.

Rick

 

[red]

Well, I'm 58 and have been driving on and off road since I was 16, so yeah, I have no real world experience. And my post CLEARLY said "I have heard" and asked for thoughts. Your first response was one of sarcasm "I hope both the rear tires point in the same direction also." But most certainly, you are superior to me. I yield to your glory.

You asked for thoughts and gave you mine backed with experience from driving with lockers. That wasn't me being sarcastic or an ass, just info from real world experience. Be offended if you like but it was meant as information.

 

[cyberpigue]

Well, my 85 CUCV is Detroit in rear and a Spartan locker in the front. I don't mind conversation and differences in opinion, but I am not too keen on rude behavior. That's all.

There is a fair amount of debate on the issue, especially when considering different terrain, vehicle lengths and weight distribution and so on. And let's recall that in the scenario presented, the rear is not locked. I too have had to unlock front lockers to corner at times, BUT in a vehicle with the rear locked. The claim (I passed on here) is that with the rear unlocked, the locked front does not require unlocking in cornering. Was curious what others thought... not looking to be made to look stupid by statements like where the wheels are pointed or assuming I have no experience and so on. Information is valuable, snide behavior is not. Pretty simple.

 

[richingalveston]

My apologies for the sarcasm it was only inserted to point out that your first post was not very clear.
The second post with the diagram was very nice and explained your point. Yes the rear tire will go a little faster but that is because it turns a tighter radius.

I do not know anyone's personal driving experience and made not comments with regards to that.
However suggesting to anyone that a non-selectable front locker for something they may regularly use on the highway is bad advice.
Many people here do not have your driving experience in order to drive a vehicle with a locked front axle.

All the advice that was given here was done with safety in mind. If you wish to put a non-selectable locker in the front of your truck it is your call, Most here will tell you it is a bad idea.

 

[cyberpigue]

Only a bad call if you don't have lockouts.

Even with an open carrier, a vehicle operates differently than a 2wd when it is in 4wd. I also have an AWD Astro with the NP136 transfer case and the front is squirrelly. I hope to move the front axle from my parts Blazer to it before winter so I have the ability to disconnect the axle as in the 4wd Blazer. Same axles for all intents and purposes besides the locking feature. And the locking is not the diff itself, just the axles, same as having lockouts essentially. I may also move the transfer case as it had both a high and low range whereas the 136 does not. I have some idea how these vehicles handle.

 

[Skinny]

I'm assuming you actually wheel and want traction here and that this isn't just a web wheeling scenario. First, I would make sure my steering was dialed in. A front locker is going to do you no good if you can't point the wheels where you want to and it certainly won't do you any good if you can't control them easily. This means crossover at minimum and hydro assist if you are really going to run large tires in the technical stuff like crawling.

Second, no matter what type of diff you are discussing nothing beats a full locker no matter what the engaging mechanism is. The large majority of the time (with maybe an exception to side hilling or ice), a full locker just simply wins by putting power to both wheels when you need it.

Having said that, most trucks don't necessarily call for a full locking front diff all the time. My old crawler Toyota had the gearing and wheel travel to need a full Detroit up front so it could do its thing in the rocks. It also called for twin sticks so you could steer it on the high traction stuff and it was a hand full on the road in 4wd.

I've also had true tracs up front and I have to say they are an excellent diff for day to day ops where I wasn't out climbing over VW sized rocks. Again, unless that is what you are doing, the full locker is not necessary. Of course if you have lots of spending cash, you can buy your way out of this with an Eaton or ARB. Problem solved.

Again, make sure your steering is resolved first because nothing is more useless than a twisted up push/pull steering system.

Just my two cents. Lots of good conversation pieces here.

 

[cyberpigue]

The basic thesis of what I read and shared was Truetrac rear and locked front. Better behavior from the Truetrac on the road and the ability to lock one hub if needed for on road traction (functioning basically as an open carrier).

Off road crawling for us in practice is spools front and rear with lockouts on front. Of course we (my son and I and our buddies) run shorter framed Jeeps with Chevy drivelines and ton axles. Our terrain is a mix of rocks and mud, but mainly rocks... mud to get to them. All of our rigs are home built - everybody goes in on a shop together to save $$ and have help around when you need it.

 

[my blood flows OD]

Those are some really nice trails! Where is that located?

 

[cyberpigue]

Those are some really nice trails! Where is that located?

East TN just west of I-75 in Scott County. This general region and to the south. http://tinyurl.com/krbtrails

 

[Skinny]

The basic thesis of what I read and shared was Truetrac rear and locked front. Better behavior from the Truetrac on the road and the ability to lock one hub if needed for on road traction (functioning basically as an open carrier).

I think this particular arrangement is less than desirable, your most traction should be on the rear wheels as a general rule of thumb. True tracs front and rear is a good idea. True Trac front and full Detroit rear is better but won't handle as good on the street.

DO NOT UNLOCK ONE HUB WITH ANY TRACTION DIFF! You will certainly cause massive amounts of damage doing this. The only front diff that will take one locked hub is an open diff or an unlocked selectable. There is no function of this method so just stay away from it.

 

[richingalveston]

When first posting I was under the impression we were talking about street legal 4x4's. If you were talking about a non street legal buggy then lock anything you want.

If you want a better handling cucv in all situations, I think a selectable locker if any is required. What would probably be most helpful is to upgrade to a twin stick 205 t-case where you can run in front wheel drive only, on pavement in the snow and ice conditions.

This takes the rear locker out of the equation. In heavy snow and ice, 4 wheel with locker you can flip on and off. Good to get you rolling but once you get moving you can switch it off for better steering.

If it is a buggy I think a selectable is still the best for the couple hundred extra $. Getting out in the mud to switch a hub is no fun.

 

[red]

According to the original poster it's for a mostly Street driven truck on a budget

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[Gripy]

Thanks for the great discussion guys! Funds are low at the moment but I think I'll go for a tru track eventually.

 

[Sharecropper]

What's wrong with the OEM unit furnished in the M1028s? Unless I am mistaken it is a Dana TracLoc which is a clutch-pack unit. Sure works great for me.

 

[cyberpigue]

DO NOT UNLOCK ONE HUB WITH ANY TRACTION DIFF! You will certainly cause massive amounts of damage doing this. The only front diff that will take one locked hub is an open diff or an unlocked selectable. There is no function of this method so just stay away from it.

Not sure I agree with this at all. Now, hear me out. First of all,, I've been wheeling with a lunchbox style locker in the front and busted a hub before. Drove it out with "3 wheel" drive and experienced no problems whatsoever other than a small bit of torque steer. The auto lockers - Detroit, Spartan, or whatever disengage when one wheel or the other gets *pushed* not when one or the other spins. With a single locked hub up front and an auto locker, the locked hub side will have power. No different really (in theory or real life) that a front tire being in the air.

I think all of us would agree that a locked rear end (selectable, ratchet/lunchbox, or spool/welded) vs any kind of limited slip or open, even with a 2wd vehicle, wants to go straight. Add to this a front end that is locked by any method (selectable, ratchet/lunchbox, or spool/welded) and it's even harder to turn. What we do is unlock the front end to help. I know that I don't unlock both hubs, I just unlock one and that solved my turning issue.

UNLESS you have massive power, I see no difference between a single locked hub up front and an open carrier other than torque steer. Power through one axle with traction is not going to break things any faster than having air with a locked axle. An open diff only ever has one axle doing the work.

Are there things to consider - especially in handling? Sure. Are things going to break certainly? I say no. I say power to one wheel is power to one wheel.

Then add to the entire mix the fact that the rear axle is NOT locked, but limited slip, the vehicle wants to turn when you turn the front wheels whether the front is pulling or not.

 

[Skinny]

I may be talking about a different scenario. I think driving with a locker up front and one hub unlocked in 4wd won't hurt anything since you are applying torque and locking up the mechanism. In 2wd though, you are causing the unit to lock through the one driving hub which will cause more drag on that one side and will keep the front driveshaft turning. I think you are discussing more of an offroad scenario and I'm on a on road scenario.

I actually blew a hub out on my Samurai back in February because the pins and springs on my ratheting locker failed and it caused it to ratchet under power. This sheered all of my locking hub bolts. I just drove it out in 3 wheel drive too. I would not put that on the road though in that situation in 2wd with a single hub locked in.

In all the multiple trucks with different diff setups I've run over the years, I've never unlocked a single hub and never really desired to. On the trucks with locking fulltime front and rear diffs, I ran twin sticks. I would only pop it into 4wd when needed even in low and double low.