Looking for info on demilling a 105 mm British Howitzer

[Sapper3]

Hi;

Our museum in Canada has recently sold an FV 433 Abbot Self Propelled gun to a buyer on e-bay. We are now looking for an ATF approved method to demill the gun before shipping it to the USA. Can anyone point me at any authoritative documentation from BATF. I've looked on line without success. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Al Harvey]

Your probably going to have to call the closest BATF office.

 

[Al Harvey]

You ever start looking for information on something and next thing you know you are looking at buying a tank? Well that happened today. I'm not buying a tank but I did come across this website that might have the info to help get you in the right direction. It has contact info for the US and Canada. Hope this helps.

http://www.mortarinvestments.eu/information/how-to-buy/licensed-material

http://www.mortarinvestments.eu/information/constructions/demilitarisation

 

[patracy]

Anything other than written direction from the BATFE isn't anything I'd trust.

 

[Al Harvey]

Within the first link is contact information for the country that the piece is being imported to. I'd contact them directly to ensure all the t's are cross and i's are dotted. And make copies of everything to CYA in the future if issues did arise.

 

[BiffJ]

When the buyer fills out an files the Form 6 to import ATF will send back specific instructions for how the main gun and any smoke mortars are to be demilled. The procedure for the last 4 vehicles AugDog 1964 has brought in were as follows (and are pretty standard):
The breech ring must be cut from top to bottom by a oxy/acetylene torch leaving at least a 1/2" gap. A bore diameter hole must be cut through the high pressure area of the barrel (the chamber normally). This is normally done by torch as well. The breech block can be retained. In some cases they also require 2 steel rods to be welded across the bore but this seems to be hit or miss. It should be pointed out that removing half the breech ring puts the gun out of balance so the barrel should be restricted and tied to the deck for shipping. Cutting the breech ring also prevents the recuperator and damper from retaining the barrel.....the barrel will now be free to slide back and forth in the cradle and especially in the Abbot this can be a serious safety issue. Not much room in the turret and driving the vehicle up a hill can cause the barrel to slide back and crush anything between it and the turret ring.

Hope that helps some and as others noted written instructions from ATF will be the only real guide you have. We can help a little but who knows if they've changed anything. AugDog has a chieftain coming in this week or next (depending on the **** trucking company is painful). This is how his breechring and barrel were required to be cut for this import.

Frank

 

[Sapper3]

Thanks for the reply. The response we got from ATF was pretty much identical. There was no mention of the steel bars inside the barrel or chamber though. WE have done the deed already with their drawings as a guide (What a heart break) and our buyer has submitted form 6 and awaits response from ATF.

 

[Capt Pat]

BiffJ has it right. But I can tell you its not going to be pretty. They wanted us to cut the breech ring and cut a hole in the bottom of the pressure chamber as large as the bore. But each situation is different and only the BATF&E's Technical Branch can tell you what they want and you have to submit paperwork to get that started.

 

[TehTDK]

I can understand the demilling requirements, but when said requirements makes the vehicle even more dangerous to drive it stops making sense. I think I read about someone on here that had to have his armoured vehicle demilled to such a state that the barrel stabilizers didn't work anymore so the barrel would slap up and down depending on where he drove etc. When it gets to that point it just stops making sense as the results of the demilling will mean long term damage to the vehicle or potentially to those that drive it / own it.

 

[BiffJ]

They don't care about safety and would probably rather you couldn't bring any of these vehicles in. There is little sense in a lot of the govt regulations. Its more about bureaucracy than sensibility anyway.
Its up to you driver/owners to make it safe and those who don't do so at their own risk. It is possible to either weld the rear of the breech ring back to the front or to add ballast to the rear of the cradle to balance the gun. It is also possible to make some sort of connection to the recuperator and damper so that movement of the barrel is controlled or prevented. These things should be done to make the thing safe for any occupants of the turret and will make it possible to rotate the turret and elevate the gun without needing hydraulic jacks to do so. It is amazing how heavy these barrels are and to imagine what kind of damage they could do when free to move uncontrolled is terrifying. We don't have to be happy about the regs but we do need to make the vehicles safe for ourselves and others. We all dream about firing these beasts but in reality it is most like we wouldn't do so even if we had live uncut guns. I do agree that its very sad to have them destroyed like this but its the only way we can get some of them.

Frank

 

[Another Ahab]

This is good. Subscribed.

 

[patracy]

This is good. Subscribed.

Subscribed.

 

[saddamsnightmare]

May 4th, 2015.


While I know it hurts you gentlemen to have to demill these main mounts, you will have to do it BATF's way or you won't be bringing it in. Perhaps you could suggest to BATF Technical to plug the back of the barrel with a fireclay plug, and then blow the barrel forward of that with a thermite change as used to weld railroad rails. When you are done there would be no way outside a major arsenal like Rock Island to salvage the barrel.

 

[Another Ahab]

May 4th, 2015.


While I know it hurts you gentlemen to have to demill these main mounts, you will have to do it BATF's way or you won't be bringing it in. Perhaps you could suggest to BATF Technical to plug the back of the barrel with a fireclay plug, and then blow the barrel forward of that with a thermite change as used to weld railroad rails. When you are done there would be no way outside a major arsenal like Rock Island to salvage the barrel.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, and you'd think the BATF would be satisfied as long as any suggested demil was irreversible. But then, we're talking an entrenched bureaucracy here.

 

[BiffJ]

We tried making a reasonable suggestion to BATF concerning demil on a tank gun being imported and they never even replied. They just sent the standard sheet to show what was to be done. Cut the breechring in half with a torch, cut a hole in the high pressure area of the chamber with a torch with the hole being at least bore diameter. That is the normal procedure. Since the regs allow them to approve alternate methods I'm sure you could get it done but it would of course depend on how much time you wanted to spend dealing with tech branch. The guys running the branch don't seem to have any idea how things really work anyway so good luck getting things changed.

Frank