M1009 No Start. (GearTeeth Grinding?) (Issue after running out of fuel/refilling)

[zdubz]

Just got an M1009 that has a faulty fuel gauge/needle. I noticed the needle fluctuating about a quarter gallon occasionally. For the last few days it has been stuck at a quarter tank. I put an extra 5 gallon jug of fuel in the back of the truck in-case I rant out, and of course, on a highway entrance I did. Within about 2-3 seconds after hearing it start to "Chug" and try to get fuel, I had it in neutral and killed the engine and was coasting to the shoulder.

I put the entire 5 gallons in the tank, and watched the fuel needle register a change of fluid level. Warmed the plugs, and tried to start and heard the most God awful grinding sound I've witnessed any vehicle make ever. Towed it home, pulled the starter, and it looks fine. It's brand new, there were almost no metal shavings at all, and the portion of the flywheel that I've been able to see thus far looked good as well. I'm going to try and rotate the flywheel and investigate the rest of the teeth as well.

The noise was definitely worse the first time I tried to start it, but still sounded bad when I tried a second time. I don't know all of the components that could produce or contribute to these noises, but it sounds to me like a mechanical "teeth on teeth" grinding/whining sort of resistance. It IS technically cranking I guess.. because the belt moves.. but it sounds terrible like I said, and of course is not turning over.

I've heard that if these fuel pumps are run dry for any amount of time they can seize up. I hope that is the only problem and that I haven't damaged anything in the interim. My game plan so far is check the rest of the flywheel teeth, replace the fuel pump, and then drive down to the Armory and see if Company B has a mechanic who knows about CUCVs. Other than that.. Any input is appreciated, thanks!

 

[richingalveston]

The system is hard to re-prime. the fuel pump should be fine. If you can check the site here for info on adding an electric pump. they are cheap and will save your starter when you have to prime the system.

if you have a serpentine belt system your 1009 is not stock so we may not be able to help on a lot of items.
The grinding can be a bad alignment on starter, missing teeth on flex plate or a cracked flex plate. when you check the teeth on the flex plate, check to see that it is not warpped also.
When the flex plate cracks, it can warp and cause a lot of noise and even starter alignment problems.

running out of fuel and the grinding noise should not have any relation.

 

[zdubz]

I'll look into the priming, electric pump, and flex plate. If the fuel system wasn't primed and you tried to crank it, would it just crank and crank with no result, or what would happen?

 

[richingalveston]

no fuel = no start.
The engine will turn over until you toast the starter or run the batteries down.
Any air leaks in line will create problems, An electric fuel pump on frame rail close to fuel tank will pressurize system and leaks will be apparent.
There is a place where most people install them, search threads, plenty of info.
pictures of what is under your hood will help with getting you help. Your truck does not sound stock, Need pics

you can leave mechanical pump in place, you can run both.

 

[Barrman]

Keep in mind that an electric fuel pump will only pump fuel to the IP. Getting rid of all air up until the IP. The IP has to be turning with the engine to get air out of the actual injection lines. I have found it takes 5-8 times of turning the engine over 10-15 seconds with at least a 30 second wait in between to get a dry IP full and the engine running again.

 

[98G]

Check the starter bolts. I suspect you broke one and the starter is misaligned.

 

[Tinstar]

Does your starter have the support bracket on the front?
Lots of threads about how easy it is to tear things up without it.
Maybe when you pulled over there was enough of a jolt or bump that shifted it.

Just a thought

 

[royalflush55]

Just my 2 cents but why did you put the 5 gallon of diesel in a can in the back instead of putting it in the tank. Never run a diesel engine out of fuel on anything. I would also suspect the starter brace. Who put the new starter on and what was wrong with the old one. If your starter is a new aftermarket starter I would suspect it also. If you are still stock 24 volt system make sure the starter is 24 volt also. Since you have the starter off take it and get it checked out. Good luck!

 

[GreggVA]

Sounds like you have air in the system and a misaligned starter. Perhaps the bucking of the truck when it ran out loosened up your starter and now it is misaligned. It is very easy to get one in wrong and many a lazy person has left the support bracket off which will really mess up things. I would recommend remove/check/reinstall your starter. I had mine rebuilt at a local heavy machinery place who were used to 24v systems (if that is what you have).

 

[zdubz]

Had the starter off, it's the 24V 27MT Direct Drive, OEM one. The bracket was not connected when I took it off, but bracket itself looks brand new as well. Lot of good it does just hanging there huh? I re-installed it and the bracket is now on. Starter and flywheel looked great.

Now I'm searching high and low on ss, chilton, and on youtube to see how I can prime/reprime the fuel and injection systems before I try and start it. I read all about the doghead filter mod and installing an electrical fuel pump and such, but don't see anything regarding priming after going dry.

On youtube, after changing fuel filter, a guy opens the air bleed by the filter box, disconnects the IP solenoid shut off wire, and cranks till fuel comes from air bleed. I'm not sure where this wire is or if that needs to be primed or is the only thing i may need to prime. Anyone know where I can find a thread regarding priming after going dry? Thanks.

 

[Hasdrubal]

The pink wire is on the top of the injection pump. Here's one thread; http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?114857-Bleeding-Injector-lines&highlight=
Pull the pink wire to purge the filter. Then you must connect it to purge the IP and lines.

 

[porkysplace]

This link will be the go to thread for most of your CUCV repairs , however there is a thread on filter upgrades but none on priming a stock system .
[h=1]CUCV Helpful Threads[/h]
Try this one for bleeding air.
[h=1]No Start After Fuel Filter Replacement[/h]

 

[royalflush55]

Did you have the starter checked while it was off?

 

[zdubz]

Awesome, thanks for the air bleeding info.

First things first, I need to eliminate the God awful grinding when it tries to crank. (I do have a video, not sure if I can post that here somehow?)... But I had the Starter checked, works great. I took the cover off the flex plate and found a few small metal shavings (a thimbles worth including dirt)- but the plate/wheel looks good from what I can tell. I can't determine warping or looseness, and there certainly aren't any cracks or bad teeth. I had my wife try and crank it while I was underneath and it seemed like all of the grinding came from the starter itself, or the starter to flywheel interface. Could a need for shimming or current starter misalignment be my demon here?

 

[cpf240]

Yes. Make sure the proper support bracket is in place. Then you can check for the proper clearance between the starter gear and the flex plate ring gear to determine if shims are needed.

 

[zdubz]

Gotcha. Definitely forgot to mention that whatever bolt had been in the starter to support bracket had broken off at some point, and I had to extract it from its housing within the starter. I basically found a bracket with an empty hole, and some remaining threads inside of the starter housing.

Truck is new to me, so I have no way of knowing if that bolt was intact when I first got her or not, but i guess I didn't think it was necessary in order to get a perfect alignment and crank it... I thought it was just so that the weight of the starter wouldn't eventually start breaking other bolts or cracking their housings in the block. I'll find something that fits and see what I come up with. Thanks cpf240.

 

[zdubz]

Well this thing has been kicking my teeth. The housing where the starter bolts to the block was cracked on the bottom side. To avoid it breaking off, I drilled farther up into the block and then tapped some more threads and am now using a longer bolt for that side of the starter. I have been doing what I call a solenoid test where with the starter bolted on, you pull the solenoid back a little ways by hand thus moving the armature that the starter gear is on. This effectively shows me where the starter gear is going to land on/in the ring gear if the starter were to be energized. (Without grinding the crap out of the teeth).

After all said and done, the ring gear looks good enough to work (though worn a tiny bit), the starter was verified to work correct and is now more secure than ever, the gear lines up and goes into the ring gear pretty snugly/tightly... But when I try to crank it there is an awful mechanical resistance type of noise. Definitely not your typical cranking noise.

What all is the Flexplate bolted to? Is it Flexplate to Torque Converter to Tranny to Engine? I don't know what down the line could be resisting, but it is no good and I need to identify the problem.

I'd be grateful for any advice/recommendations/thread links.

 

[o1951]

1. I do not like cracked stuff. You should replace the cracked starter housing. If there was enough stress to crack it- probably from lack of support bracket, it is probably distorted. Misalignment from distorted housing may be the problem.
It don't take long to chew up the ring gear.

2. Sounds like insufficient root clearance, and possible angular misalignment. Unless you find something in Tm's, I used to set root clearance for 30 thousandths. Used wax or whatever was handy to measure it. Shim where starter housing bolts to block to increase root clearance.

 

[zdubz]

1. I do not like cracked stuff. You should replace the cracked starter housing. If there was enough stress to crack it- probably from lack of support bracket, it is probably distorted. Misalignment from distorted housing may be the problem.
It don't take long to chew up the ring gear.

2. Sounds like insufficient root clearance, and possible angular misalignment. Unless you find something in Tm's, I used to set root clearance for 30 thousandths. Used wax or whatever was handy to measure it. Shim where starter housing bolts to block to increase root clearance.

I agree, cracked iron/steel is no good... But the crack isn't in the starter, it's actually in the engine block, where the bolt goes from the starter and threads into the block. So Short of replacing the block.. my solution was to drill up farther into the engine block and tap new threads.

As far as shims go, I did try some shims, and never had good luck aligning it, but I never actually had a tool to measure with, and I've never shimmed or spaced a starter before. When you say thousandths, are you basically measuring the height of the shim? I'll look into some threads, youtube videos etc.. to see how to measure the space, but so far I haven't been able to see anything about it in my research. Thanks alot for the info, at least now I have another lead and another thing to look into.

 

[o1951]

No. What I used to do was to manually engage starter pinion at solenoid and put a piece of wax- like a birthday cake candle between starter pinion gear and ring gear. I would do this thru inspection port, or in some vehicles, the sheet metal cover on the lower part of the bell housing unbolted. Then rotate so candle goes thru mesh, see how much clearance there is. If there is excessive engagement, will turn hard, load up starter and cause early bearing failure. Insufficient engagement overloads teeth, and causes excessive tooth wear or chipped/ broken teeth.

I never had to do this with starters, but you could use Prussian blue to blue the pinion and operate starter to check tooth contact. I did it on differentials and transmissions.

For best life and operation, the pinion gear should be close to parallel with ring gear, and at proper engagement. This is not rocket science. The gears only mesh briefly while engine starts, so does not have to be precise like trans or differentials where gears are under load all the time vehicle is in motion.