m109a2

[Haveittoplease]

data plate near glovebox

The data plate on the dash above the glove box is what you need to look at. Carnac is the guy that could tell you all about your truck.
Unfortunately his 2013 Vin Info thread may be delayed in being started. Like this. http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?80494-2012-vin-info-thread&highlight=2012
I suggest reading his first post and his last post in that thread.

Unfornunately the plate was switched out with anothe that the dealer could title but the IDplate on the block gave me the year the title says its a 1971 jeep M35a2 and the platform has the repair van on it. Mix and match. I will definately go to Carnac's thread over the next few days to see what that will bring. Thanks for the lead, he's the man I've been looking for for his invaluable info.

 

[Katahdin]

According to the 1965 version of the -10 TM, the M109A2 designation was for multifuel engine powered--either LDS-427 or LD-465. M109A1s were gasoline engines.

I think the A3 designation was due to the box design change, but I don't have the documentation reference off hand for that.

As for sprags, well, the Army was rebuilding them and reinstalling them into these trucks as late as 1985. I know because I've got one that was.

 

[phil2968]

I will definately go to Carnac's thread over the next few days to see what that will bring. Thanks for the lead, he's the man I've been looking for for his invaluable info.

His thread for 2012 has been closed and the 2013 thread has not been opened yet. He stated at the end of the 2012 thread that it may be awhile before the 2013 thread is started. Please DO NOT pm him (his words) because he will not respond to it.
Do you know these trucks have frame numbers? Under all the paint on the outside left front frame rail. Numbers are large but not very deep. Use paint remover but do not grind! The first 4 digits tell the most about the truck, manufacturer and the year more or less.

 

[Emmett]

Yea, lot's of upgrades and mods. I don't know if it's true or not but I heard that the deuces with the exaust routed under the chassis, like mine, were engine upgrades from the 427 to the 465. Sounds reasonable but no proof. If that is the case, my data plate would have been replaced to an A3....The data plate is also a Kaiser Jeep manuf, M109A3 WO/W with all data fields along with the acceptance stamp. I have seen replacement data plates on vehicles but none had the acceptance stamp (the eagle with arrows in a square) so why is it listed as an A3?....lost of things going on here.
The USMC liked to weld large hoops on the front bumper and then cut them off for ship boarding...mine also had the lifting hook/arms from the rear springs up through the U hooks on the box.

No doubt an interesting thread, I spent lots of time in the past trying to find out answers to these same questoins to no avail.
One thing I did find out early on was what the 4 V type brackets were for on each side of the box....Not in the -20P or the -34P...I found the P/N and nomenclature in an old CCKW manual. Yes, even back in the 40's shop vans were alive and well.

 

[phil2968]

I heard Emmett that those V brackets were where lights could be installed. I guess that's why there are ladder hooks below them. Get the David Doyle book about military trucks. It has lots of answers in it.

 

[stb64]

OK, here is some information for you:
The M109A2 has the same engine as the M35A1 (LDS 427-2) and the same exhaust that exits between the rear wheels. All have the sprag transfer.
The M109A3 has the same engines as the M35A2: LD 465-1, LD 465-1C, or LDT 465-1C. Exhaust is either horizontal (early) or vertical (late).
Early A3 van trucks have a sprag transfer, late ones air.
The body is the same on M109A2 and A3.
The difference between M109 and M185 is that the M185 comes with workbenches and other equipment already installed.
The 25amp generator / 60 amp alternator changes engine designation, not truck designation: the C in LD 465-1C means 60 amp generator (and covered intake heater).
Mounting a wrecker body on a M35 chassis does not make it a M60 or M108, what you need is a special wrecker chassis with reinforced frame.

 

[Emmett]

Yes Phil, I believe you are correct as I read that in a CCKW manual along with the P/N's for both the brackets and the light assys.

stb64...Not saying that you are wrong but, I would love to see supporting documentation on the references above. Either military or contractor. I have been playing this game long enough to know that without supporting documentation or references it is just heresay. We have already read in this thread what several folks thought the differences were. These opinions did start an interesting thread but no REAL references were posted to back up the "DATA"....
throw me a bone here, any supporting data?

Regards,
Emmett

 

[stb64]

Emmett, i will have to dig out some TM´s for you, that is where i got all that from, but it could also have been figured out by comparing trucks and reading the data plates in them, and on the engines and components.
You are absolutely right on the hearsay. Many people on here just spread disinformation, so it is o.k. to ask for documentation.
I will go trough my TM´s and tell you exactly what number, date, and page.

 

[stb64]

Here is the first one:
From TM 9-2320-209-20 dated 7 april 1965 on page 20: "The M109, M109A1, M109C, and M109D are gasoline engine models with minor differences. The M109A2 is the same as the M109, except that it has a multifuel engine." And: " Instrument repair shop vans M185, M185A1, and M185A2 are the same as shop vans M109A1 and M109A2, respectively, except for very minor differences."
On page 528.1, chapter 5, (Change C4, this is a change added to at the end of the manual)"Maintenance procedures peculiar to M44A2 series trucks" Paragraph 397. Description:
"a.The M44A2 series truck chassis are basically similar to the M44 andM44A1 series.
b.The LDS 427-2 multifuel engine in the M44A1 series is replaced by the LD 465-1 (fig.42 or the LD 465-1C in the M44A2 series truck"
"The LD 465-1 has a 25ampere generator, the LD 465-1C has a 60ampere generator"

 

[stb64]

What is that smiley doing there. it should be fig.428.

 

[stb64]

Another mistake: 60ampere alternator, not generator.

 

[stb64]

Found this in TM 9-8022 dated december 1954 in chapter 5 "differences between models" on page 52:
" j. Shop Van Truck M109."..."Five windows, equipped with blackout panels and side sash screens, are installed in each side of body."
There is no mention of the van body with 3 windows on each side in this manual, and no mention of the M109A1, like in the 1965 manual. Here, again on page 20, it says:
"Three windows (five in some models), with blackout panels and side sash screens are installed in each side of the body."
So, the difference between plain M109 and M109A1 may be the number of windows in the van body, i haven´t figured it out yet, just as i still don´t know what a M109C or M109D is.

 

[stb64]

From TM 9-8022

 

[Emmett]

I guess we are getting close. I do suspect that mine had a 427 in it due to the lower exaust. Yes, the data plate might have been replaced while the vehicle went to depot maintenance and upgraded to the newer engine. surprising that it had the acceptance stamp on the data plate and no MWO tag but stranger things have happened. It might be that once it was upgraded the new Data tak with the approval stamp sufficed.
Still, it has M109A3 on the data tag with all info, 3 windows on the side. LD engine and lower exaust. It did have the 25 amp generator but I upgraded it with the 60 amp alternator with the "upgrade kit" available for all M series vehicles.
I do my best never to say never! Still no data on the difference between A2 and A3? Good work on the research and I am looking forward to the smoking gun on the A2/A3 differences.
I know it is a USMC vehicle and they march to a different drummer insofar as MWO's go.

 

[Katahdin]

The lower exhaust was used with LD-465 engines through to the 465-1-1C version (see pic). My truck I'm pretty sure is a 109A3 that came with a LD-465 and it has the brackets for the lower exhaust. Although the data plates on the 109 box is covered by paint I found the wiring inside of the walls to be dated 1965, that jives with the 1966 M109A3 Vin Number of the truck frame.

I found some dimensional and weight differences listed with the M109A2. Its also clear from stb64's picture the older M109 box lacks wheel wells. I think the pintle height figure in the picture is a typo, the extra ground clearance puzzles me, unless those stats include larger (11.00x20) tires.

Note, for reference these pics are from the 1980 version of the TM.

 

[stb64]

According to all manuals, the difference between M109A2 and A3 is the engine used (427 vs.465).
Many other changes took place only after the start of the A3 series, so you will find many of the features of the M109A2 on early A3´s, like horizontal exhaust (but with different pipes and with the addition of a muffler), reversible headlight panels, sprag transfer, box seat, old style taillights and marker lights, electric horn, old style front crossmember, 25amp generator, etc.
The best and most reliable way to determine wether a truck is a converted A2 or an original early A3, is to carefully check the data plate and frame number.
If the data plate in the cab is etched with "script" kaiser jeep , M109A3, and with factory stamped looking i.d. number, and if the plate matches the frame number, it most probably is an original M109A3.
If the A3 data plate looks hand-stamped, or it does not match the frame number, it may be a converted A2.
Per TACOM order, when a 427 was replaced with a 465 engine, the blank data plate included in the replacement kit was to be stamped with the truck´s i.d. number, and istalled in the cab in place of the old plate, and the information was to be forwarded to TACOM, so the truck could be accounted for as a M109A3.

 

[Lextreme]

Great choice.. i love mine........

 

[Emmett]

Well stb64, You have no doubt given us a lot of info but you have yet to give a manual reference to the difference between an A2 and A3. Kinda vectered off with the 44 series and what not but no defined difference. I read and re-read your posts but no defined difference. Kathadin has posted some defined numbers as per the TM.
I only see the latest post as an educated guess but without a DEFINED difference. I admire your work to post your case but unless I can read a "word for word" manual definition I am a bit weary as to be able to stand on point.
Please don't get me wrong but the whole discussion is about the A2 and A3 without the assumptions.....We all agree theat the chassis changed but the US definition of the difference of the shop van is the biggie.

It is important to note that other than data ( that no doubt defines the difference in wt/lngth is important) there is no defined difference and, I guess lets one assume...that is you and me.
I guess I too am going to have to look harder or I am not the brightest guy and missed your point. Please don't get me wrong as I am still trying to wrap my brain around all the assumptions.

Kind Regards,
Emmett

 

[stb64]

Emmett, was assuming you knew what the M44 series is, and that all "reo" design deuces are part of it.
I also gave you TM number and year, chapter, page, paragraph sub paragraph, and i copied the info letter by letter from the TM, to let you decide what your truck is, based on it.
based on your questions, i was also assuming that you don´t have the TM´s with the info, that´s why i said exactly which TM´s, to give you a chance to buy the right ones.
Get the older TM 9-2320-209 series, not the -361 series, if you want to see lots of actual photos. The -361 series manuals have drawings instead and very little or no information of historical value on the older trucks, but the repair instructions are very detailed and almost fool proof.

 

[stb64]