M1123 Purchase and Build Thread - Virginia

[MaverickH1]

Are you talking state congress or Fed?
I do love that they make that claim about a vehicle that has turn signals, high/low beam head lights, running lights, brake lights, a windshield, seat belts, etc. Seems to me if you are designing a vehicle for off road only use there would be no need for that. Not to mention that many of these used on military bases never go off road and we see them routinely on state roads when used by the military.

State. Expecting a call from the DMV later today or tomorrow.

I received their "decision letter" and it cites the "Off Road Use Only" verbiage of the transactions with calling it an Off Road Vehicle status in Virginia. Design wise, this is false as evidenced by the 1987 and 1988 NHTSA letters to AMG provided earlier. And legally, this is false in my case because it never said "Off Road Use Only" anywhere and I can prove it.

 

[MaverickH1]

I think you are poking the wrong bear. I do not believe any congress person has much weight on state DMV rules. When you ask someone for something they may want more than one vote, so they will try to figure out what is best for them. If we poke a bear... and messing with a government person is poking a bear (has nothing to right or wrong) they act litigious and self serving. They will always take the route of best for them. So, I would try to get a group of people together in VA. If the group is large enough, fun loving, and a good group of voters then bring in State Senators and Delegates and have a good time with them and make your case. Otherwise we will fail.

The VA DMV will be sending letters out revoking Humvee plates soon. I have the decision letter in my inbox, it is referencing another person who poked this bear with an "Off Road Use Only" Humvee. The DMV is trying to make a statewide revocation of plates based on that decision. That decision is wrong, and I have to do something about it.

I don't like getting too personal here... but I'm a young guy with a new marriage. I've dreamed of owning this vehicle since I was 10. We sacrificed quite a bit and made a nearly $30,000 purchase on something I did all of my homework on for 21 years. Govplanet and the DMV all gave me the green light, and I can prove it. Govplanet lived up to their end of the bargain. The DMV screwed up. The DMV is trying to make that vehicle worthless to me on bad information.

I cannot let that stand. If I was talking to them without my congressman, they would have continued to block me and not let me talk to the people making the decisions just like they have already done. Now that my congressman is involved, I'm expecting a call from the DMV commissioner's assistant on this matter any second. To me, that's what has to happen to fix this for anyone. The only way this gets stopped is if I can prove to the commissioner that this vehicle IS defined as an NHTSA motor vehicle, that it is exempt from the FMVSS, and that's where it ends for me.

There are four ways this ends:
1) The DMV ceases the revocation of plates and recognizes Humvees as motor vehicles as defined in federal code. At the very least, they grant an exception to vehicles with no history of "Off Road Use Only" wording. They have to pass the Virginia Safety Inspection as defined by Virginia Code like any other vehicle. The DMV issues a letter stating that.
2) DMV declines option 1. My state congressman agrees with me and steps in and fixes it.
3) DMV declines option 1, and my congressman agrees with the DMV's ruling. I start calling for lawyers and sue the DMV for damages based on them giving me bad information.
4) #1, #2, and #3 don't work and I have to sell my dream vehicle to someone, most likely out of state.

 

[Sintorion]

Don't forget to include your state senator as well as your representative. You also have another option if you can pool together some resources and that is a lobbyist. That is how they began allowing golf carts on the roads in Fla. Golf cart association hired a lobbyist to do all the work for them. In this case you would probably need a 4 wheel drive specialist shop or maybe an off road club.

This guy may be worth a call if anything he can probably point you in the right direction. - https://solutions.virginia.gov/Lobb...ontactId=ca936d67-9483-4cbc-a4e9-e821c1cd0bde He is an automotive lobbyist. Sadly they seem to have better leverage over state activities than your elected officials.

 

[heavyzee]

Hope this doesn't go aginst the rules, since this isn't an "off-road only vechicle"

since you don't have the "off-road only" issue, just register it in South Dakota... that's where my race car is registered - it was super easy. I used the one in Rapid City, the Pennington County Tax office. Nice people... and perfectly legal. They have out-of-state registration and they will send it right to your house anywhere in the US(maybe even intl' i donno)

 

[MaverickH1]

Hope this doesn't go aginst the rules, since this isn't an "off-road only vechicle"
since you don't have the "off-road only" issue, just register it in South Dakota... that's where my race car is registered - it was super easy. I used the one in Rapid City, the Pennington County Tax office. Nice people...

I'm hoping I don't get banned over it. I've tried very hard to be 100% honest.

To all, the confidential letter that I got from the VA DMV Commissioner referencing another person's issue was very similar in conclusion to the Michigan letter we've already seen.

 

[Sintorion]

Not surprising. These public servants are not car people. I know the ones in FL are either appointees that are friends with the governor or someone that started with HSMV 30 years ago. They are not bad people just miss informed. It is our civic duty to help properly educate them. There is nothing illegal about that. In fact, that should be encouraged.

 

[Retiredwarhorses]

Revocation was exactly what I was and continue to be worried about, I've been saying all along that the more you poke the bear, it's eventually going to bite back. I've had hmmwv's titled since 2001... still own some of them.
IMO, the MVPA needs to step in and start working these issues on a state by state basis.
what kills me is they don't seem to bother with almost any other surplus vehicle...it's just hmmwv's as of late.
i also think GP needs to work on lifting this Off road only restriction, I'm sure they want too anyway, as it would increase sales. As I've also stated many times, a 92-93 Hummer H1 is almost a direct copy of a hmmwv, except 24volts.
the only difference I know of is the steering column is from a ford escort.
many states title 41-45 MB's and GPW's...they are more unsafe then anything on the road.
If it were me, I would move to have military vehicle plates issued that at minimum restrict the vehicle to parades, carshows and events, as well as Maintenance rides....a lot of my customers want them as daily drivers and road trips.

 

[MaverickH1]

Revocation was exactly what I was and continue to be worried about, I've been saying all along that the more you poke the bear, it's eventually going to bite back. I've had hmmwv's titled since 2001... still own some of them.
IMO, the MVPA needs to step in and start working these issues on a state by state basis.
what kills me is they don't seem to bother with almost any other surplus vehicle...it's just hmmwv's as of late.
i also think GP needs to work on lifting this Off road only restriction, I'm sure they want too anyway, as it would increase sales. As I've also stated many times, a 92-93 Hummer H1 is almost a direct copy of a hmmwv, except 24volts.
the only difference I know of is the steering column is from a ford escort.
many states title 41-45 MB's and GPW's...they are more unsafe then anything on the road.
If it were me, I would move to have military vehicle plates issued that at minimum restrict the vehicle to parades, carshows and events, as well as Maintenance rides....a lot of my customers want them as daily drivers and road trips.

I think it was inevitable that the bear would be poked, as evidenced by my situation where someone else already has. What is unfortunate is that the DMVs are acting on the knowledge that "Off Road Use Only" is a blanket statement relating to all Humvees ever to exist. States often work on legal precedent set in other states, and it is important to cut this off early in my opinion. Right now, what I can guarantee is:

- The Virginia DMV is getting ready to revoke all plates from Humvee owners in this state. -

The commissioner of the VA DMV is basing the decision about it being an Off Road Vehicle completely on the "Off Road Use Only" verbiage from the feds. They are taking that and running with it to condemn all Humvees.

If I don't fight this, Humvee owners in VA will be hit. If I fight this bear with evidence, the state of VA will have to admit that the Humvee is NOT an ORV. IF they do... that puts a large crack into their entire defense. Hopefully for all time. And hopefully in more states than mine.

 

[Sintorion]

I wish I were still in VA and I would fight this with you. Here in Fla it is a little more tricky since they have done what WarHorse suggested and created a special "former military vehicle" plate and put a bunch of restrictions on it. It is still based on the "Off Road Use Only" thought, but at least you can legally register them as long as you don't modify them. The challenge will be on the enforcement of use. I talked to local law enforcement who had no idea that HSMV had even created such a class and the part of use for "public display" is very open to interpretation. Considering every time I drive down the road or park in a parking lot it is on public display. You can't keep people away from it. Local law enforcements view was basically "don't drive like an idiot over curbs, yards, etc., don't drive it everyday as a commuter vehicle, don't put chrome wheels and paint it bright pink, and you are perfectly in compliance with the law".

Now that is the current view with me as the only one in the county with this vehicle. It is a novelty that everyone loves. As more and more are sold, I expect the views will change and the current position will change. The real answer is getting everyone understanding of what we have and what it is.

I agree also agree with WarHorse that IP really needs to take the lead on this. They stand the most to gain and should have lobbyist lined up in every state working on a logical solution. I understand that they are all new to this business with this being their first foray in to the world of government contracting and I think they are really behind the curve. The nature of their contract is such that a very wise government contracting officer really pushed this deal into a way that DLA is really insulated themselves from having to hear directly from the public on this. About the only skin they have in this game is that they are violating government policy on the SF97 by stamping the form as off road only.

In issues like this it is always the money trial that leads to getting things fixed. It seems to me that if IP and DLA could stand to gain substantially if they worked to get this confusion cleared. Not to mention that as tax payers we all gain from better return on our government investments.

 

[MaverickH1]

I had my first conversation with someone higher up in the VA DMV today. I have to say that I THINK it went really well. She stated that she thought I was presenting new information to the DMV that they will review and that she was surprised that I was turned away in the first place.

I'll leave it at that for now. I should have a more definitive answer next week.

 

[Johnpossumhales]

Can anyone tell me what RB DATE on the engine tag means

 

[Lionel]

Rebuild?

 

[MaverickH1]

Rebuild?

^ that. Mine had RB 2009 tags on the engine and transmission. In 2009, my vehicle had 21 miles on it according to the IROAN (Inspect and Repair Only As Necessary) plate. The tires are also date coded as 2009.

It also has inspection tags on the geared hubs that are blank as far as date and inspector. This is likely why the massively annoying white sticker on the hood says "SPINDLE INSPECTED". It should say "Spindles".

 

[Lowmaks]

Any news, Mav? Been a couple weeks. I'm on the edge of my seat here lol

 

[MaverickH1]

Any news, Mav? Been a couple weeks. I'm on the edge of my seat here lol

The Director of Vehicle Services is the lady that I spoke to at the beginning of the month. On Feb 15, she e-mailed me and said that they were working with their legal team and would have a response very soon. I asked if she could give me any indication on which way it is leaning. She said it was being reviewed at a much higher level, and she asked me some more questions about the M1123s. She then said that it is not leaning in any particular direction and they are looking at all documents.

I responded to her questions and haven't heard anything since. That was February 16th.

I'm leaving out some details because this might end up being a legal issue. I'll explain more about that once I'm given the "okay" that the truck is good to go in writing.

 

[Lowmaks]

Thanks for the update, Mav! Best of luck! Let me know if I can help since I will soon have an M1123 here in VA.

 

[Another Ahab]

The Director of Vehicle Services is the lady that I spoke to at the beginning of the month.

I'm leaving out some details because this might end up being a legal issue. I'll explain more about that once I'm given the "okay" that the truck is good to go in writing.

It's like a saga you got going:

- Nothing's ever easy, is it?!

Like Lowmaks says, good luck with it all. Looking forward to reading good news here.

 

[M1097A2NUT]

So here is my question regarding revoking of registrations. I have a legally titled, registered, and insured 1097. It was never an ORUO vehicle. If I moved from PA to VA does this mean they would refuse to title/register it?

 

[jeffy777]

So here is my question regarding revoking of registrations. I have a legally titled, registered, and insured 1097. It was never an ORUO vehicle. If I moved from PA to VA does this mean they would refuse to title/register it?

They would probably register it. There is no direct law just a viewpoint at this time.

 

[MaverickH1]

So here is my question regarding revoking of registrations. I have a legally titled, registered, and insured 1097. It was never an ORUO vehicle. If I moved from PA to VA does this mean they would refuse to title/register it?

My honest answer is that I don't know. I think you'd be okay, but honestly it's a crapshoot.