M211 crew cab crusade

[snowyrivers]

We will likely sell the extra engine and tranny.

We are hot on the prowl for either a 6.2 or 6.5 GM diesel to retrofit into the deuce

We have located an 83 Chevy PU with a 6.2 and an ATS turbo setup.

The power level will be a bit more than the stock 302 6 cyl but far short of anything that will turn the drive lines into pretzels.

We are going to back the little diesel with a TH 400 auto and probably a gear vendors OD unit to get a tad more road speed.

The "Little deuce crew" is gonna be a custom all the way.

We will likely keep the air wipers as air will be plentiful on board.

The kid has many great ideas cooking on on what he wants as far as looks, fuel tank, battery location and such.

I'm more of a "modify, adapt type" and use as much factory stuff such as battery trays, fuel tank and such.

We both want power steering and a full service contemporary column and wheel.

I just happen to have a lovely column from a 91 Burb that's complete with 4 spoke wheel, tilt and such.

We will strip the entire wiring harness from the deuce and toss it, as time and rodents have finished it.

The GM pickup donor will provide a good wiring harness that will service the engine and chassis completely.

I have been thinking about welding in the stacked quad headlights from the PU into the original core support to give the front end a very unique look.

We have not thrashed this out as yet so ???????????????

Currently my thrust is getting the air brakes and the 22.5 duplex wheels to grow on the truck.

Today I'm planning on a trip to the truck bone yard to do a recon on some air brake equipment.

Found a front axle with 15x4 brakes and need to measure some things to see if adaptation is gonna be easy or require more chips in the trash bin of the lathe and mill.

The biggest hurdle will be the axle flange that the brake spider bolts to. If the flange on donor axle is larger then it gets easy as we can machine a simple adapter to mate the brake spider to the existing flange on the deuce.

If the flange on the deuce is too large then it gets interesting. We will likely need to mount the spider farther inboard to allow the brake shoes to sit in the proper location, plus we need the adapter to allow the 10 on 11.25 budd wheels to fit the factory deuce hubs.

Once I get good dimensions on the inset of the spider/shoes from the donor axle, then we can get going at making parts.

If need be we may have to cut the flange off the axle on the deuce and make as new one to fit the air brake spider (Read as backing plate in air brake talk)

We have plenty of room between the hub and the springs for the newer drums and brakes to fit, just gotta get them where they need to be is all.

The 2nd through the 4th ones will be easy to build as we will have a blue print and an example to work from.

Number 1 will likely have some !@##$%^&* with it, but that's normal when prototyping.

The best part is we are not dealing with stuff that needs to have .001" tolerances.

Even the wheel adapters could have run out of a few thousandths and be fine.

Brakes need to be located close diametrically and in and out within the drum within 1/16th inch.

As long as we can register off existing machined surfaces we are in the sweet spot.


More to follow.

When we have parts I will post pix

Snowy

 

[snowyrivers]

We got brakes

The bone yard had a buttload of front axles and we got a pair to start with.

Drums, Spiders, shoes and all the hardware

All look like nearly new except for a bit of dirt.

Here is a pix of the stuff in the Burb

Once we get the stuff cleaned up I will post more pix.

Maybe tomorrow.

The pair of brakes (one axle) was $200 so not too bad to start with.

Got to get a boring head for the mill so we can bore out the center hole in the spider about an inch.

Not too spendy an item on ebay, but never needed one until now

 

[snowyrivers]

Got after the brake parts today, BIG TIME

A lot of measuring and sketching and more measuring and more sketching.

Finally got a good plan going.

We need to remove a large part of the backing plate flange on the axle, leaving a 1/4 inch ring that is just at the bottom of the old bolt holes.

Next a new "adapter" gets welded on to allow the air brake spider to be inset 1-3/4 inches (toward the frame)

This in conjunction with a 1-1/4" thick spacer on the hub will position the drum correctly over the shoes.

I had hoped that we could forgo having to mod the axle itself, but it was not to be.

The location of the air brake drum on the hub (donor rig) was 8-1/4 inches from hub face to inner most part of shoe edge

We would need to use a 3 inch wheel spacer otherwise, and that's not gonna happen on my watch

I want the wheel adapter only 1-1/4 inch thick

Here are a couple mock up shots I took with the air brake spider and cam bracket clamped up close to how it will sit when done.

The brake chamber that's there (air can) will be discarded and replaced with a dual chamber "maxi can" that will have a spring chamber on the rear portion.

This gives top notch parking brakes instead of relying on the old drive line brake.

The current brake chamber is a type 20 and will be replaced by a 24-24 series.

These brakes were front axle brakes 15 inch by 4 inch wide

Using them on the rear will provide quite adequate braking.

My worry is pouncing on the brakes and locking them up

WE will see.

Snowy

 

[ThumperTDC]

Donor engine, well one of three engines that will become one. This one is out of an 88 so it has the serp belt drive. Only 128K on it.



Needs to be cleaned, but will go through it and eventually install it in the 83 chev to get some drive time on it until we are ready to install it in the truck.

 

[snowyrivers]

New (to us) engine all home safe and sound.

Good 8 hours of "Go gettum" time today.

Here are a couple more pix

I looked it over as well as could be done hanging on the string.

The accessory package is all present and accounted for.

The little beast looks pretty much virgin.

As mentioned, 128k on the clock.

The intake is not nasty sloppy with oil suck over, so the rings are possibly fairly good.

Best plan at this point me thinks is to get it apart and do a good postmortem on it.

Once apart it can be cleaned real well and we can see if it has any of the 6.2 bugs (Cracked mainline or ???)

Its a pre one piece main engine too, so it very likely is the original from 88

It has a very nice deep plenum single plane intake.

This will work sweet with the ATS turbo off the 83 pickup

I was thinking today that we can get the IP and the squirts out of the 88 engine and send them over town to my fav diesel shop for rebuild, and while they are there, have them turn up the IP to match what we need for the turbo.

All done at one time.

When we bolt her back together it will be ready to howl.

Good bet we can get about 200 hp from this little oil burner, plenty to make the deuce go just fine.

The kid is into a set of dual smoke stacks on this critter, should sound awesome.

Good turbo whine with large stacks.

I am crying that I dumped a ton of 6.2 stuff a while back. Arrrrrrgh

Never thought I would need any of it again.

Oh well.

I do have a nice flex plate and the turbo 400 tranny.

More to follow

 

[snowyrivers]

Went out yesterday and did a bit more scrounging.

Scoured up an 83 Chevy 2500 4x4 for some conversion parts.

Wiring harness, a nice ATS turbo setup for the 6.2 diesel engine and likely a few other things too.

The trip got started late and ended waaaaaaay later than I would have liked.

The usual round of BS'ING got out of hand and we did not get home till after 10 pm

A few pix of the prize.

The parts we will glean off this rig will lend themselves to getting a nice clean power conversion on the Deuce

We will part out the rest to hopefully return our $$$ PLUS SOME

 

[snowyrivers]

Stopped by the DMV the other day to see about titling our one 211 (Dallas) as it was never titled by any known owners, or at least the past two, and this spans 30 plus years.

The folks at DMV were very helpful I might add as well as polite.
I ended up with a form 550 (IIRC) that when filled out gives the State all the particulars they need to title the truck.

Sadly we have to get Dallas back on the trailer and haul it to the local DMV (15 miles) so they can physically inspect the vin plate.

Once that is done we submit our Application for title along with the form 550 and our bill of sale though DMV and then things should be set to go.

We thrashed the issue of title out and decided that this was a good thing to get done before making major changes in the truck.

We have been looking for another partial with a title, or cab or serial plate or ???? to accomplish the end result of getting a valid title before moving too far.

The current plan is to Sell our Second truck as a complete as is to someone who wants to restore it.

For our needs it would be a shame to destroy a near factory M211 just to glean a few parts.

Any one wanting a complete can contact me via pm and we can discuss things.

Anyway, moving ahead slowly with the acquisition of parts for our re-power.
We harvested the ATS turbo system off the little donor pickup truck.

Got the stuff cleaned up and it looks good.

We received a new boring head for the mill the other day, so now we can start machining on the brake spiders and get that idea moving ahead.

Tooling is Spendy, so ebay was the choice place to buy.
We ended up with an overseas made boring head, although not my first choice, it will do fine for this "Hobby project"

We are not going into production, so the $$$$ spent need to be somewhat conservative in the area of tooling.

Already we will need several holding and machining fixtures to accurately modify the brake spiders as well as manufacture the adapters to mount them to the axles of the 211.

That's about it for the moment.

More to come

Snowy

 

[Tracer]

Looking forward to more write ups and pictures on your project.

 

[snowyrivers]

Just sort of in a holding pattern at the moment.

I got O'L Fort Dallas back up on her feet today so we can go visit the nice folks at the DMV next week.

Had the Left rear hub off completely to get dims for designing the wheel and brake adapters.

Had to drive two studs back in the hub on opposite sides to bolt one wheel on to hold that corner up off the dirt.

I had removed the axle, bearings, studs and all to get really good dims.

Did not have new axle gaskets and wheel hub seal so I stuffed the old seal back in an silicone'd the axle flange to keep water out.

Probably leave it together now until we have the adapters machined and ready to trial fit.

Going to tear into the 88 6.2 diesel here soon as it's indoors and we can work out of the weather.

Gotta see what sort of scrap iron we bought with that deal.

Lotssa things to fool with while we shop around for more sheet metal.

I did score a brand new old stock center drive line assembly off ebay for a very good price.

Likely we will machine things to allow the constant velocity shaft to work with the TH400 tranny


All for now

Snowy

 

[snowyrivers]

Just sitting here thinking (Dangerous and usually costly)

Thumper (The kid) has been shooting some great ideas around on the rig, with ideas for dual stacks, and other things that will make the truck a real eye turner.

Having been involved in several engine swaps over the years, I am skitish about these endeavors without a good plan and sound engineering.

I once installed a Cat 3208 in a Ford F250 4x4 OMG What a nightmare that was.

One mess after another to get the Kitty beast stuffed under the hood.

Once in the truck we had to pick the front end off the dirt, as the Kitty was a lot heavier than the Ford Gasser V8.

These memories are coming back and are urging me to approach with care and a lot of measuring, and also some good jig and fixture work to ensure that we measure twice and cut once.

There are many many areas that will raise issues.

The location of all the air brake equipment.
The proximity of the accessory equipment to the frame, fenders and such.
The centerline location of the new engines crank shaft as compared to the original.
The crank centerline must be in the correct location to keep the drive line angles and such all the same to avoid bad vibes.

The divorced transfer case makes this absolutely necessary.

The length of the V8 is shorter than the original I-6 but the TH400 is longer than the old 4 spd hydro.

We recently got hold of a NOS center drive shaft and its very very short, so there is concern about the the OAL of the power plant assembly.

Moving the T CASE is doable, but this will make more drive line work necessary later.

Just all part of doing a re-power in an old rig.

As soon as we get the rig to DMV for a vin inspection we can get after things more.


Keep ya posted

Snowy

 

[snowyrivers]

Fam damly all been sick the past few days, so little has happened other than minimal things to keep the lights on.

Nearly back to feeling human again.

Tooling is starting to take shape for the air brake/hub mods.

Yesterday a few things showed up at the PO BOX.
A box of long wheel studs to allow the spacer/adapter to be fastened to the hub, and a nice 31/32 reamer.

Recently went to an old tool store up in Portland to get a few replacement parts for some lathe tools. A carbide insert clamp and clamp screw, as the screw had broken a while back.

While there I was browsing the nether parts of their show room and discovered a huge pile (rows and rows of shelves) of old military surplus tooling from WWII this stuff was awesome, with prices to die for.

We needed a 31/32 drill and these are not cheap, at least new. I found two in very good shape for $5 each

More stuff coming.

Once the tooling is all here we can giddyupgo on the first adapter.

The biggest issue is holding the entire hub and spacer concentric and square to the spindle in the mill.

Been working on a fixture to hold the hub, and decided to take a piece of 3/4 plate about 8x12 inches, drill it so we can bolt it the the mill table with the T nuts in slots and some hard bolts.

A quicky cut across the top face to provide a square and flat surface will get things going.
Next we will turn up a "spud" (short stub shaft) that will have a shoulder that will allow the wheel bearing (new one used specifically for the mfg process) to fit on snugly and align the hub.

The spud will have a hole drilled through it to allow it to be held solid with a through bolt.
Once the assembly is complete, a trip to the lathe and a light "truing" cut will be taken on the table side of the plate to assure it's true to the spud.

With this jig we can locate the hub as close as we need to be able to drill and ream the lug stud holes as well as the locating stud holes that will hold the adapter to the hub.

Once the hub is sitting on the jig, the bolt circle can be indicated and the hole centers located.
With this done the x and y on the mill will be locked in place to allow all six of the original bolt holes in the hub to be transfer'd to the adapter accurately.

The entire assembly will be held to the jig with the draw rod up the center of the jig and a "hair pin" (heavy U clamp used in milling operations)


This may sound quite complex and difficult, but I assure you it is pretty basic machine shop stuff.

Other methods could be employed, but we need to keep costs under control and use the machines we have to get this task handled.

Here is a piccy of the Studs.

The top stud is an original from the M211 hub that we removed when we had things apart to measure for the design mods.

The longer stud is the new stud that will hold the adapter to the original hub.

These are a standard stud that's available online and at reasonable prices.
The threaded portion is a standard 3/4-16 thread.
Once the studs are pressed through the adapter and the hub they will be secured by hardened "Swage type" lock nuts.

This will ensure that the assembly remains sound.

Once we get the jigs and fixtures ready we will give you a picture tour of the shop with the setup in the mill.


All for now troops.

Snowy

 

[snowyrivers]

More tooling arrived today.

Several more items coming.

 

[snowyrivers]

A new revelation has surfaced.

A call came in a bit ago and it looks like we are going to get another M211 that's complete and running.

If this comes to pass we will be having quite a few parts for sale, including the engine, tranny, axles and such.

I will post in the ad forum when this happens, but if anyone needs things like ENGINE, TRANNY, BRAKES, AXLES ETC PLEASE PM ME.

The plan is to use the cab off the newest acquisition as it has a title.

Cut the frame on two of the trucks to allow the project to be extended so the crew cab will not cost bed length.

Lotsa fun.

Snowy

 

[ThumperTDC]

Apparently, I am no long in charge of my own project...............who knew????

 

[snowyrivers]

Oh yeah, you are in charge all right.

You get to do all the work on it.

You wanted engineering help and such.

I'm gonna run out of steam long before this beast is done.

 

[m1010plowboy]

You need steam? We'll give ya steam. Crank the volume.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvYHtAstoR8

 

[snowyrivers]

I have to admit here for all to see.

I have worn many hats over the years, from Journeyman machinist, Journeyman fabricator and welder. Those many hats took me into the arena of field service engineer for a few years and that was an interesting job.
Once a machine is in the field (And does not work right) ya go make it do what it should have done right out of the box.

This was a demanding and tedious job, with the customer (having spent a lot of $$$$) on a piece of equipment to make them lotsa $$$$$$$ and IT'S NOT WORKING, standing on one side, and the company i worked for on the other scrutinizing every move that's made to make the customer happy and the cost to do it.

My goal was a happy customer, and this can be tough sledding, really tough at times.

There is a fine line to walk in this arena, between success and looking for a new job for sure.

Over the years I learned to be an assertive take charge type with a "Gitterdone" attitude.

Delegate authority, praise in public and A$$ chewing's in private sort of attitude.

The move to heavy trucking was a breath of fresh air and for the most part a time of relax and get paid well.

Show up, do your job well and no problems.

Life is not perfect, but the bulk of the years trucking were FUN, JUST PLAIN FUN.

Now, back to the M211 project.

My son in law (Thumper) asked me a while ago to help on the project and I agreed happily.
I am also in on the cost too.

The kid has got some fabulous ideas as to what he wants to end up with, and we have had some good chats about his concept and I have pretty much formed a mental picture of what the goal is. (Gonna be Sweeeeeet)

So the idea of a re-power is tossed out and we discussed the Dodge 12 valve and I immediately warned that this likely would be a poor choice due to the original power trains design having been wrapped around a 130hp engine with fairly low torque.

The rigs use low gears in the axles to get the job done and not brute power.
The 12 valve would likely turn the small drive lines and diffy's into pretzels.
The other caviat is the $$$$$ cost of the 12v vs other choices of power.

The subject of keeping the truck as much GM as possible.

This said, the challenge grows a lot when trying to play the custom game.

I suggested the 6.2 GM V8 diesel to be a great choice.

There are many reasons for this choice.
Original cost to get something to work with (The 6.2 can be had CHEAP)
Modest power output, although a bit better than the 302 6 cyl
Compact size to facilitate an easy install.
Very easy install of a Turbo charger to make it perform better and SOUND WAY COOL.

We already have on the bench a TH400 HD auto tranny that will work well. (Cost savings)

After retrieving the first truck, we are looking over all the menagerie of plumbing on the brakes and the question was fielded, "Could we put full air brakes on this rig" ????

Oh yeah buddy, toooo easy was my response.

Later the question was asked, "Can we stretch the frame" ????? (Allow for crew cab and keep decent bed length)

Answer
OH !@$#%$^ YESS, you betcha, piece of cake !!!!


These things are all very easy when sitting in the lawn chair looking at the beast there in the drive way, but now somebody has got to make good on these lofty statements.

The plot thickens

The 83 Chevy is discovered and it has the aftermarket turbo to give the beast the "Whistle"

More scrap iron to get rid of now that the prize has been gleaned from the "wreckage"

With all these herculean tasks out there, and my big mouth having been opened it's now time to make good on the talk.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm a gitterdone type of person, and waste little time getting the ball rolling.

Make no mistake, this is Thumpers project.

My goal is to get the engineering done on the brake swap plus make at least one complete setup from start to finish.

The engine swap is another area that is not just a boom plop done thing.

Where is it going to sit, how high, how far forward or back, what other needed items like the steering box (small detail) are going to need moving to clear the engine.

DID THE SUBJECT OF POWER STEERING GET MENTIONED ????

The big fat 385/65/22.5 tires are going to take up a buttload of room up front as they swing during a turn.

How is all this going to affect things like the location of the drag link etc as the project progresses ????

The subject has already been discussed of lifting the cab to make a bit more room.

A suspension lift was discussed and I discouraged the idea due to the major task that would involve drive line angles, steering geometry and a litany of other issues that could be easily achieved with a cab lift of a few inches.

With these things beat around some, the task of making it happen in real time come to the forefront, and right quick.

Having been in the heavy trucking business I had a pretty good handle on the likely sources for used brake parts and materials that would be suitable.

The machinery trade was a plus for knowing what tools were needed and where to locate the stuff.

EBAY IS A GREAT PLACE TO SHOP if you know what you need as there are literally tons of good NOS tooling available CHEAP

This said, just cheap does not mean that it's what you need.

Getting the design work hashed out was tough as there is always a fly in the ointment somewhere.

Get it all figured out and then at the last minute when you think life is perfect, ahhhh crap, the particular lug stud size/length is not available.

One secret to this sort of project (unless $$$$$ are of no concern) is sourcing OFF THE SHELF PARTS that can fit the bill and perform the needed task.

Parts people at parts houses can be a plus or a real PITA.

The net is a delightful source.

I spent days searching the various lug stud charts (big rig stuff) to find the best solution to the wheel adapter problem.

Now try and get some in hand.
The local suppliers are clueless in many cases (Ahhhhh we may be able to order them is about it)
Again EBAY and poof there it was, and cheap too (half of wholesale and available in short order)

The design is done and the numbers crunch good, the parts needed are available and are either here or coming.

So now what???

TOOLING, TOOLING AND MORE TOOLING

The magic of a custom project is the warmth and charm of the person who envisioned it and caused it to become reality.

Getting it to reality means making a lot of steel chips at the lathe and the mill and loads of sparks with the welder and grinder.

Just having the mill and the lathe is only a small fraction of the problem.

Drills, reamers, boring bars, carbide inserts, counterbores and the list goes on.

Then comes the jigs and fixtures to hold things so repetitious activities can be done exactly the same without major setup time.

This also ensures that all the parts will be the same. (Wheel adapters and air brake mounts)

We have not even talked about the rebuild on the 6.2 engine (likely not a serious thing, just a minor overhaul)

Then there is the crew cab thing. Nothing much other than the concept and a few raw ideas has been touched on.

Oh, lest us not forget the very real possibility that we will need a new (custom built) radiator that can handle the heat load of the diesel (The old unit is not gonna cut it)

Yess troops, this is Thumpers project.

I am his hired tooling, machining and can do "go-fer"
that hopefully will not fail him when it counts.

My goal is to help him get to a point where the project can proceed at his pace with good results and minimal troubles.

Oh yesss, Thumper is going to spend many hours watching chips drop on the floor or into the chip bin, all the while dreaming of the day his dream rolls out the drive under it's own power.

The whistle of the turbo in the tall stacks and the Pa choo of the air brakes as they are released.

My job here is as a facilitator.

No different than years ago when the company president is expecting good results and a happy customer, and we sit in a new mill out in the sticks and things don't fit, saying, "yeah sure, no problem, got it covered"

This project is far different than even a frame off restoration.
A restoration is nothing to laugh at, as it is tedious and requires lots of skill.

On the other hand, we are now the engineers, draftsmen, purchasing agents, machinists, welders, sheet metal folks, assembly people and also likely wear a few more hats too.

Oh, did I mention wiring ??? yes we get to be electricians too and make all the lights, gauges and other electrical systems work right.

Ahhhh, no there is no schematic yet, we will make it up as we go.

The air system all has to be installed according to a known workable design.

All the valves procured, located in the chassis and plumbed.

This little crew cab truck project is a basic redesign from near the ground up.

My hope is to be able to impart to my son in law as many of the skills needed on this project as I can.

Sadly those long hard learned bits can not be just handed over in a basket with a bow on it.

With some judicious work I hope to give him the tools, both the kind you work with and the ones you keep in your head that will get him through this project and many more to come.

I am not the project director, I am the facilitator.

It has been mentioned by my daughter that I am contributing to Thumpers delinquency and allowing him to run amok.

MAYBE NOT IN SO MANY WORDS, BUT IMPLIED

I say this with a smile and not as a critical comment.



Snowy

 

[USMC 00-08]

Apparently, I am no long in charge of my own project...............who knew????

Oh yeah, you are in charge all right.

You get to do all the work on it.

You wanted engineering help and such.

I'm gonna run out of steam long before this beast is done.

Oh man...this is going to be fun to watch!opcorn:

It is neat to see you guys working on this together. Not many people have an opportunity to do something like that.

 

[snowyrivers]

Normal hissing and spitting.

We get along real well though.

Snowy

 

[ThumperTDC]

Looks like #3 a 1954 M211 is getting picked up on Wednesday. This one runs, drives and has an Oregon title. So #2, aka Sumner or the green one will more than likely be going up for sale sometime in the near future. As cool as it would be to have the custom truck as well as a stock one, my wife wouldn't allow it. But on the other hand she has gotten a bug to try to find her old Jeep she had when we met. If I could track that down and pick it up, I would probably be sitting pretty good to almost do whatever I wanted and not hear about it.