M35a2 block heater

[RangerDave]

Thanks greenjeepster, I will take a look and see if there is enough room in the oil cooler to put the heater... The element is about 3 1/2 inches long.

 

[roscoe]

The coldest its been here is 5*F and my truck will fire up instantly with the Westfolk type heater. I don't have experience with the other kind. I also have the flame heater, but I don't need it when the block heater has been plugged in. When I've started the truck without the block heater it takes much longer at warmer temps to fire up. This is all I have to offer.

 

[tm america]

if you screw the 3/4 inch block heater into the oil cooling system it will cook the oil .it will cause it to catch on fire and your truck will burn up please greenjeepster do this to your truck show us a video of that

 

[Bob H]

if you screw the 3/4 inch block heater into the oil cooling system it will cook the oil .it will cause it to catch on fire and your truck will burn up please greenjeepster do this to your truck show us a video of that

When at operating temp the oil is at least 300°
while the coolant is half that
The oil is what is cooling the turbo down from the near 1200° exhaust temp some of us are pushing.

So I guess if that block heater is gonna get things that hot, maybe I don't want one. {Sarcasm Smilie here}

 

[TIGERFANS2]

The thing I'm having trouble understanding is what does debate mean and what does done mean?

 

[tm america]

they dont make oil heater that use a water heater type element there is a good reason. the debate is real simple someone is posting things that are incorrect . and this can make someone make a misinformed decision of what type is best for them. it doesnt matter to me which type you choose it is your truck i just would like the member to have the right info so they able to make the best desicion for them .people have experience with all different types of block heater the best info comes from guys that are actually using the different ones available. rather than guessing at how they will work. i have a screw in block heater in the water pump of my deuce and i know how it works.i also have a freeze plug heater in my tractor . i also had a heater hose type on my f250 and i am familiar with how each type works and the positives and negatives of all three.these are the facts all heat the coolant . heater hose type use a pump that can fail that the other types dont have . the freeze plug type can blow out of the block as the retaining devise can rust or loosen from heat cycles the screw in type has neithe of these problems they all have a heating element that can fail .the heater hose type is most often the first to fail since the pump is needed to move water if it fails the heating element will overheat. the freeze plug and heater hose type can cause major leak points that did not excist before installing them. the screw in type doesnt do this .like i said they all heat the coolant .all suffer from the same problems with the rad disapaiting heat but a winter front ussually fixes this.

 

[tm america]

as far as why the a block heater shouldnt be used to heat the oil dirrectly is oil doesnt transfer heat at the same rate that water does and it will overheat the heating element it can cause it to short ciruit and catch the oil on fire . if you have even replace a heater element on a electric water heater you will see when the elements fail they ussaully burn through the tube that is in contact with the water. when they are burning the metal they are at a much higher temp then is need to start oil burning

 

[tm america]

the oil in a turbo never gets to 1200 it is moving and cooling the turbo oil looses its vicosity at around 300 . like i said oil doesnt disapait heat at the same rate as water does . and even if it did the cyclinder temp is the same as the egt .so why isnt the water temp at 1200 . this is why bad info is so bad , i am a profesional mechanic i rebuild transmissions for a living and deal with cooling systems everyday. i havbe been doing this for over 18yrs and alot of this info just doesnt hold up in the real world

 

[greenjeepster]

TM.... If you pull the plug I am referring to on the oil cooler I think you will find that it is in the water coolant side.... it isn't going to have any impact on the oil.

It will do what you thought your water pump with the hole in the back was supposed to be doing. You haven't addressed that hurdle in your water pump heating theory yet... I figured you would have some other theory to explain how the heat is efficiently getting from the water pump and into the block..... haven't seen it yet though....

Roscoe: You have added heat to the water in your truck..... Physics dictate that it has to raise the temp of that water so of course you will see an improvement in starting if it is plugged in long enough..... I am not debating that.

Think of it this way.... You are loading a manure spreader with a pitchfork when there is a bucket loader sitting right next to the shat pile. Both methods will work... one takes a lot more time and energy.

Tiger: I thought I was done.... but apparently we are both hard headed. Check back in July and we will probably still be at it.

 

[jwaller]

would somebody go and buy a simple IR temp gun and use it. and show us where the heat is and how much of the block is getting warm?

 

[Divemaster920]

I am doing it now....will report later.

 

[Farmun]

would somebody go and buy a simple IR temp gun and use it. and show us where the heat is and how much of the block is getting warm?

I want to do this, but it will be next weekend before I'm home. Hopefully (or not, depending on your climate preference) it will be cooler than it is now. I was thinking of taking some pictures (or video ) of the motor temps measured by the IR gun at different times (say every 30 minutes or so) and at differents spots on the motor (water pump, hoses, radiator, intake and block). This should give some pretty good data on how well one particular model/brand of coolant heater works.


Found this picture explaining thermosiphon - and the term convection is used to describe the movement of heat. I know, it is in a water distribution system - not a Deuce. But thought it was kinda cool in an elementary way.

 

[avengeusa]

It was 8 degrees here a couple times last week

Both days the truck was used, got it from Derby, No block heater, 60% ish wmo, the rest is gas, diesel... cranked a few revolutions, hammered the cold start injector a little on the heavy side, and pushed the throttle, fired right up, had to open the pull throttle a touch, let her warm up for 15 minutes and off I went

always starts

But I have thought about the block heater as an add on to save wear and tear on the starter, but then I do get starters at cost, so , i dunno

 

[roscoe]

TM.... If you pull the plug I am referring to on the oil cooler I think you will find that it is in the water coolant side.... it isn't going to have any impact on the oil.

It will do what you thought your water pump with the hole in the back was supposed to be doing. You haven't addressed that hurdle in your water pump heating theory yet... I figured you would have some other theory to explain how the heat is efficiently getting from the water pump and into the block..... haven't seen it yet though....

Roscoe: You have added heat to the water in your truck..... Physics dictate that it has to raise the temp of that water so of course you will see an improvement in starting if it is plugged in long enough..... I am not debating that.

Think of it this way.... You are loading a manure spreader with a pitchfork when there is a bucket loader sitting right next to the shat pile. Both methods will work... one takes a lot more time and energy.

Tiger: I thought I was done.... but apparently we are both hard headed. Check back in July and we will probably still be at it.

Greenjeep,

I think it works better than you realize. I just checked the top of the engine and it is warm to the touch - front to back. The truck was shut down around 5p yesterday and is sitting out side. The truck will fire up instantly -- just as on a warm summer day. Oil pressure jumps up much quicker also. I'm sure there are more efficient ways to keep the block warm -- but this one from Westfolk works well. I'm curious to see how well it works at below zero temps. I'll post up if I run into any problems with it but so far I'm happy.

The debate has been fun to read by the way. It would be nice to see some comparison tests on the various cold start options.

 

[Keith_J]

Derby:
The diagram show the circulation of the coolant when the pump is moving the water.

As far as the up then down comment... It will go up until it reaches the thermo. At that point the heater continues to heat water and the heat has to work down backwards because it has nowhere else to go. It is a very simple concept...not sure why so many on here do not understand it.

I have no bone in this argument... I have presented the facts for those who are undecided about a heater....... I understand the defensive stand point if this is how you have yours installed. My posts are to benefit those who have not installed a heater yet... Just trying to save them a few bucks on the heater and electricity.

Good luck

Eventually, the thermostat will open, even with only 600 Watts of heat being applied to its downstream side because there is no forced coolant flow, only thermosiphon. The thermostat, being only pressed sheet metal, offers minimal thermal resistance.

From the thermostat, heat and coolant will warm the intake and then the head. This is the most important area for starting.

 

[tm america]

i will take temps tomorrow morning when it is a little colder .it was around 30 here today i want to get the temps when it show what is happening when you actually need the block heater .

 

[greenjeepster]

After two weeks of incredibly cold weather for this part of the country it is nice to be back into the 50s again. But now I wish we would get one more cold morning so I can time the start up of my truck without a heater. One of the reasons I think the heater in the water pump is less effective is that I know my truck will fire 10-15 seconds at 10 degrees so I was not real impressed with Westfolks 8 seconds in his video.

We used freeze plug heaters for years on the farm on everything. I am used to a diesel with a freeze plug heater firing with just one hit of the starter at temps well below zero. (of course this equipment all had glow plugs) I avoid them now because about 12 years ago I pulled an International into an unheated equipment shed and plugged it in for the night.... The heater shorted and burned the truck, shed and a bunch of other equipment to the ground. I would rather take a few extra seconds to start than risk loosing equipment that I need.

 

[tm america]

his video was done at 8-10 degrees which 8 secs is great for a deisel truck not using glow plugs or the intake heater.i doupt you even need a block heater in ky most of the time up here we get below 0 temps for weeks on end. the two days before i installed my block heater my truck wouldnt start without either. then i installed the block heater and it fired right up probably not even making two turns of the crankshaft..if temps get low enough to make the oil get thick the block heater helps out so you dont have oiling problems on start up.even though you might not need the heater just to get the truck to start it still is better for the engine to preheat . down there you could probably get away with a oilpan heater .

 

[greenjeepster]

I don't have one so I guess I don't need one here.... We have only lived in this part of the country for 4 years... we came from Vermont...much colder and much harder to start a diesel....

 

[tm america]

you have to do a real world test if you are gonna go by cranking time. for instance do both without using the intake heater .also take note of how long it yakes the oil pressure to come up and then how long before it comes off of max pressure as this is a good indication of a lake of lube or putting unneeded stress on the oil pump.greenjeepster now that you know how the thermostat and cooling system work in a deuce with a multifuel can i get that appology you owe me .i was not trying to argue with you just wanted you to know what is really happening in the engine with the block heater in the water pump.which is just as effective as having it in the block. as it is heating the same coolant and has the same flow pattern as when using the block heater in the block vs in the water pump.either way coolant is flowing through the block head water pump and back to the block and flow to the rad is limited by the thermostat.