M35a2 Timing

[sandcobra164]

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JohnJuan, this is a useful thread that died about 2 years ago. I appreciate your enthusiasm but putting a . on a long dead thread is frowned upon on most forums I've ever visited. It will bring the thread back to the top and someone else might gain an understanding on the timing marks between the harmonic balancer, the mark under the 2 bolt cover on the front of the IP and the "red marks" that you have to line up to pull the HH. They are different but all covered in the TM.

Sandcobra

 

[dmetalmiki]

Thank you everyone posting here...I have no faith in the timing at all, read my latest post, However, Since there is absolutely NO point in timing the engine..you only fit the hydraulic head when and if it slides in.
So, As I now understand it, (And how I did (Do( the deuces we have)), I simply get a soldier B to rotate the engine, Holding upward pressure on the hydraulic Head, And have them stop rotating it immediately the Hydraulic Head 'Pops out.'
After repair or servicing simply replace the Hydraulic Head (And do not bother about timing!)........" MM" (Miki mouse in my humble opinion!).

 

[m-35tom]

There are marks that you line up to remove the HH. (The RED tooth) These are not timing marks but rather servicing marks. Removing it any other way risks damaging the HH. There are also timing marks for the injection timing.

 

[Floridianson]

Yes and no when the red tooth is just about one tooth off to the rear and advanced window and harmonic balancer is on there marks then according to the TM we are timed correct. Yes we only have to line up the red / scribe mark if we need to remove the Head no matter where the HB or the advance window is. If the HB was on TDC for #1 cylinder and advance window was on it's mark but red tooth / scribe was not showing or to many teeth off then the timing is not correct. Yes it would be hard to install the head with the way the quill shaft washer thingy moves but we have seen stranger things people can do to these trucks.

 

[dmetalmiki]

I(have turned my engine so many times I am dizzy!, At NO time have the marks on the Harmonic Ballancer (Front pulley) lined up with or without the pump marks, When that (Dreaded!) red tooth is actually spot on.
Tomorrow I shall get soldier b to watch the half get into position, And (B*****r) all other marks!, Shove in the hydraulic head, reassemble and push the bang button!.
I will report...
If i designed and engine ALL timing marks position and indicators WOULD be so marked as to line when the engine is at the delay point, the pump is set to squirt, And the 'distributor (Hydraulic head) is ready to 'do it's thing'.
How hard can that be?, No need at all to be so difficult and unfathomable? for the mechanics and or service personnel.

 

[m-35tom]

You are completely missing the point. There are 2 timing marks and one tooth with a line and usually painted red. This red tooth is NOT a timing mark at all ever. It is a service mark so that the pump will not be on a stroke and so that it will be easy to install the HH. The timing mark on the HB lines up with the injection pump timing mark under the timing window, the little plate with 4 bolts. This is a very good design since it makes it easy to reinstall the HH. And if the red tooth is not showing, turn the engine one more turn, HH turns once for each 2 revolutions of the crank.

 

[Floridianson]

Correct timing is approximately one tooth off as I said before. As per TM. If these two timing marks are aligned remove the timing cover and look to see if the red mark / scribe can be seen. Now it says seen but it does not say on the head pointer. If it can be seen injection pump is on the correct stroke. If the red mark cannot be seen the engine or injection pump may be on the wrong timing stroke. It is a timing reference point. Even the TM calls it a timing mark but as said correct timing the red / scribe is approximately one tooth off when the HB and advance window are on there marks.

 

[Floridianson]

dmetalmiki I do not believe I have ever said that when the HB and advanced unit are on there marks that the red tooth / scribe would be on it mark. As I said we only line up the Head red / scribe to remove the Head from the IP. As said if the HB was on #1 TDC and advance window is on it mark the Head will be approximately one tooth off to the rear. I do not know why you think or believe that all three timing marks will be on point at the same time. If someone posted it they were wrong. Now lets look at it another way. If the HB was on the correct #1 TDC and the advance window was on it's mark but the Head red /scribe was approximately two teeth off to the rear then the timing is advanced. If HB and advance window are correct but Head red /scribe was approximately two teeth off to the front the timing would be retarded. For correct timing according to the TM as said HB on #1 TDC compression stroke, advance window on it's pointer and the Head red scribe would be approximately one tooth off to the rear. .This advance or retard would not just happen on it's own it had to be done by someone. So when all is set up as per TM we can remove or install the Head when it is on it's mark but we can also mess up and install the Head with the red/ scribe off of mark. As said sometimes people who work on these trucks do not always get it right. We have talked about advancing the timing but I have not seen a post on how but would seem advance is sometimes a good thing.

As for Tom you are one of the few I would not want to bump heads as you probably forgot more about the Deuce than I will ever know. It is a timing reference point and we use it to check timing or remove or install the Head when red / scribe is on mark.

 

[dmetalmiki]

Ok , I do appreciate your taking the time to clarify things.
I have had the H.B. spot on (LDT 4641A.
Pump Pointer Spot on.
H.H. Red mark Is on the mark.
So, I have retarded? It will not start at the moment.
It NEEDS to go BACK a tooth?
Confirm and I will change the setting tomorrow.
It ought to at least run just where it is>?
Your thoughts.

 

[Floridianson]

Sounds like it needs to be corrected. When harmonic balancer is on correct mark and advance window is on it's mark then correct the Head red / scribe is approximately one tooth towards the firewall or towards the rear of engine. I do not know that is your problem but yes needs to be corrected. It happens when we install the Head. We just have to watch when the Head drops into the IP it drops in right on the red / scribe. If not we just pull it out and rotate the plunger drive gear and try again. It has happen to me. As you said since your red/ scribe is off then that will throw off the quill shaft cut out washer. So as you said have someone rotate the motor and when the Head gear lines up with the quill shaft cut out washer the Head should come out. Then you will have to rotate the engine with the Head out and looking down the IP hole where the Head goes you should be able to see the quill cut out washer. Try and get it so it looks like the quill cut washer is equal on both sides or even cut out showing on both sides of it. Also the one gear you can see or that is in the center of the quill cut washer is pointing right to the center of IP tappet hole. When you have it just right the Head will seat all the way down to the IP housing and no need to force it. If it does not seat all the way down then you are just a little off. So if you can get it that far and Head drops all the way in then check to make sure it is still on the red / scribe and it pointer. Then after you get the head secured down with all hardware if you now rotate the HB to it's correct mark and advance unit on it's mark the Head red / scribe should be just about one tooth off to the rear. If you look at the TM pic I posted you can see it is not quite one whole tooth. Almost like it is just about to hit the next tooth but not all the way. I tried to point with the tip of my pen what / where it will look like it is line up with or if the TM pic comes out you might be able to see it is not quite one whole tooth but it is still correct.

 

[dmetalmiki]

Thank for the clarity and the detail.
Here's what I actually did,
H.B. = OK
PUMP marks = OK
H.H. half moon plate = Equal.
(My Mistake?) positioned The H.H. Red line ON THE POINTER.
So if I now rotate the engine to the H.B. and Pump Lines
Would that then place the HH red line back a tooth to the correct position?
If I follow you then, I do not have to re position the red line again?
Thank you for your patience.
With the lockdown and stuff going on, (Hands real bad, hips, and now the 'dreaded splint shins' to add to the irritation and agony!. I have become VERY irritable. (which is not conducive to 'calm workmanship'!.

 

[Floridianson]

From what I read in your last post you are good. I like pictures but!!!

 

[dmetalmiki]

Then pictures you shall have, Thank you for the help, My camera would be junk now and 'knee deep (Nay deeper!) in grease and muck if I had tried to film progress, Working single handed is very difficult for me, , Turn prop, up, check, turn prop, up, ( two downs obviously!, Careful with the ladder...),
Bending over all the time under the fender, standing has caused the 'splint shins' to re-emerge.
Still, Onward and upwards as they say.
I am going to try starting the engine again today.

 

[Floridianson]

What's funny is I have been calling the TIMING cover the shut down cover. Guess someone felt that there was something to do with timing under there. Yes we only remove or install the Head when the red / scribe is on the IP pointer. Problem is the Head can be installed with the red /scribe at any point as long as the quill shaft is in the correct position. Just like it looks like might happened here and timing was off.

 

[dmetalmiki]

No go.
Required oil spray to fire it up.
It ran at high RPM, (about 1000/2000, But cut out and would not start again without the spray..
Do you think it needs the red toothed 'COG' (as you originally suggested putting back one tooth?
This would advance the timing.

 

[frank8003]

You "spray it" and You get to rebuild it.

 

[dmetalmiki]

So just to reiterate, so long as the 1/2 moon appears when the crankshaft pulley is near the firing position marks , then you recommend the hydraulic head red tooth be one space off to the rear?

 

[dmetalmiki]

So just to reiterate, so long as the 1/2 moon appears when the crankshaft pulley is near the firing position marks , then you recommend the hydraulic head red tooth be one space off to the rear?

You "spray it" and You get to rebuild it.

No actually, I DO NOT use EASY start or ether products.
I always use a 'teflon spray' which provides soft ignigition WITHOUT detonation, knocks, or bangs.

 

[dmetalmiki]

Would you affirm this for me please.

"So just to reiterate, so long as the 1/2 moon appears when the crankshaft pulley is near the firing position marks , then you recommend the hydraulic head red tooth be one space off to the rear?" This would advance the timing.

 

[Floridianson]

You made it sound like when your harmonic balancer was on the correct stroke and correct line to the pointer and your advance four bolt window was on it's mark the Head red /scribe was not approximately one tooth to the rear. You made it sound like it was a couple of teeth before the pointer. I only meant that you might have to after removing the Head get the quill shaft cut out washer in line so you can replace the Head back into the IP with the red /scribe dead on the Head pointer. Maybe when you removed the Head the quill shaft was in the correct position to reinstall the Head with the red /scribe on the Head pointer. You just do not want to force the Head into the IP housing as when the gears line up the Head will drop all the way down into the IP housing. It really is quite simple I do not know why you are having trouble. We only remove or install the Head when the red /scribe is dead on the Head pointer. The HB and advance window will not be on there marks. When they are on there correct marks the correct timing is red / scribe will be approximately one tooth to the rear.