M818 GVWR

[Armada]

For titling purposes, what M818 GVWR should I use?

 

[Rattlehead]

5 ton tractors galore in MI!

If you can get historic plates then you don't have to worry. If you are going with a GVW plate, then it depends on whether or not you are going to pull a trailer. The smallest GVW plate in MI is 24k, which you will be fine when bobtailing. Tractor probably weighs 20-22k, depending on if it has a winch.

If you go with a GVW plate, you can get 3 month, 6 month, or 12 month plates, priced accordingly (with like a $10 additional fee for the lesser plates). If you don't have a trailer YET, you could get a 24k plate for now and renew it later for the addition of a trailer.

 

[Armada]

Thanks. I will probably register and plate it as historical. It will also be awhile before a trailer will be added, so it will mostly be bobtailed and I can always upgrade later.
It is the SF97 application that is asking for the weight and GVWR. The truck itself is 19,500lbs w/o winch according to the data plate. So for the GVWR question on the application, should I use the max off-highway towable weight or the on-highway towable weight or something else? Sorry, I'm new to these heavy guys.
Thanks!

 

[Rattlehead]

Better let someone smarter than me answer that question, but here's my thought. I think the total GVWR is over 50k. It probably says on your data plate. But if you look at the operator's manual, they list the payload for a tractor at 15k lbs, and 10k lbs for a cargo. Since this is the off road rating, you could double that, then add your empty weight of the tractor. That puts it around 51k.

There shouldn't be any negatives to a high title weight. Even if you went with GVW plates, you can run any weight plating that you want, as long as you don't run it when over that declared weight.

My 932 is titled as a tractor, but there isn't a GVW on it. So maybe MI doesn't report GVW on the titles, just the plates?

 

[ida34]

Paul,
Put down the actual weight on the all the paperwork to get the title. You want the title to reflect the actual weight of the truck. Go with the 19500 lbs figure. I would then get a historical plate unless you plan to use it go haul anything but an empty trailer. If you start hauling stuff then a trooper can argue that you are using it for everyday type use not for just shows and parades. If you are only hauling trailers to show and such you would be find. If you plan on hauling more than just to shows and such then get a GVWR tag. With tractors I am pretty sure you declare the gross weight on the trailer plate not the power unit's (tractor) plate. I could check for sure if you are not going the historical plate route.

Basically the title has the empty weight and the reg takes care of the Gross weight. Short story, use the 19500 for the titling. They still did not put a weight on my F-350 and they wanted to tell me I had to get a 24K plate. I then found an old reg with the weight on it. They use the weight to figure fees for the registration if you are not using a declared weight plate. The lady at SOS charged me for a new title because my old one did not have the weight on it. I told her that either someone at her office or Lansing made a mistake and I did not want to pay for that mistake since it was not mine. No go. She charged me anyway. To add insult to injury, when I got the new title it did not have the weight on it again. Originally the truck was an incomplete chassis and a flat bed was added later and I think this may be the root of the problem but I don't want to get into it at the SOS branch. I will just make sure I bring in the old reg with the weight on it.


PICS OF THE TRUCK PAUL!!!!!!!!!! Don't make me beg.

 

[Recovry4x4]

Since so many folk are buying tractors, wished someone would stop by and buy my M447C trailer

 

[tklm539]

Come on Paul, you have to show the pictures and tell the story about ALL the trucks that were shipping out!!!

Still washing the CUCV every night

 

[ida34]

Since so many folk are buying tractors, wished someone would stop by and buy my M447C trailer

I'm trying to get one so I can buy your trailer!!!!!!!

 

[DaveP]

Paul, why not go farm/log with your plates? $14 per tare wt ton. i think this is way cheaper than a comm plate and if the load is yours, its legal. as far as getting a title for the beast call me and i can shed some light on this for you. it is very easy to get. i have done this a few times.

 

[ida34]

The farm plate would restrict him to within 150 miles from his home.

 

[citizensoldier]

While we are on the subject.. What is the law in regards to driving my wrecker to and from shows or museum pick ups? If I plate it historical do I need a CDL to do so? It weighs 35K and I thought the law stated that if it weights over a certain amount or is capable of pulling a certain amount you need a CDL. Isnt there a loop hole in regards to a historic military vehicle if you are going to parades or picking up stuff for a museum or GLMVPA? The law is fuzzy to me here? I would like to understand it in a concrete manner so if pulled over I know what I am talking about. Mr Ida sir..
By the way I am always going to a show or doing something for the museum..

 

[ida34]

You really have two questions there. For everyone else, this applies to Michigan. First to the CDL issue. As long as you are not being paid by the museum to pick up the stuff you will be fine without the CDL. You may find an unknowledgeable officer that may think otherwise but you would win it in court. The law clearly shows you do not need a CDL. The officer may think you are lying about what you are really doing so I would carry something to prove what you are doing and if you do get pulled over make sure you make the point that you are not making money. You are not moving the items to sell or getting paid to move the items.

Short answer. No you do not need a CDL. No matter what weight as long as it is used for your own personal purposes and you are not making money with it.

Now to the historic plate. The law as it pertains to the plate is really wide open. A guy in A2 runs around with a historical plate on his chevette. He is clearly in violation because he is driving it as an everyday vehicle. He can say he is on the way here or there but when he is seen driving it everyday it is a problem for him. The point is the law states parades, shows, ETC. What is ETC? I take it to mean for repair or taking Sunday drives. JI would say if you are hauling back and fourth to parades you should be fine but hauling stuff back to the museum is where it gets fuzzy. If you are using it in this capacity it is more of a work vehicle instead of a show vehicle. You might have trouble with this one but it is real fuzzy. That means it would come down the judge deciding if you were violating the law or not. If you are hauling stuff to and from the museum not just to shows and back I would recommend getting a declared weight plate. People call it a commercial plate but it has to do with the weight not the use. SOS tried to get me to giveme a declared weight plate for my F-350 because the title did not have a weight and it had a flat bed. The lowest weight is 24,000. Mine is a heavy truck but it is only a 12,500 gross vehicle. She knew I was clearly not a commercial operator but most people do not have trucks for personal use this big so people tend to incorrectly call them commercial plates and as such think that anything with this sort of plate on it requires a CDL and it is not true. Would you say you do more hauling for the museum on pickups or more driving stuff to and from shows and meets? If you do more hauling (not going to a show and such) then I would get a declared weight plate. If you only do it occasionally then I would get a historic plate. The historical plate is really just to get "show" vehicles to an from show and parades, and for people occasionally taking an old car out for a spin. It really does not allow any hauling of cargo but if you were just hauling stuff to and from a show and such I would think you are still within the spirit of the law. That being said I have used my deuce to do stuff like pick up popcorn for the boy scouts and take loads to the dump. I doubt anyone would stop you for it and if they did the ETC leaves a big enough hole to argue in court. There also is no specific mention of Military Vehicles in the Historical Plate law. The lady at SOS nearly choked over having to give me a historical plate for a vehicle weighing over 13,000 lbs. An older and wiser lady just told her to type it in and give me the historical plate.

Short answer for the plate thing. It depends on how the local law enforcement and judge in your area interpret the law as it is vague. To and from the show is definitely not a problem but picking up stuff to bring back to the museum might be the problem.

I hope this helps and if you have any follow up stuff give me a bump.

 

[citizensoldier]

This helps me greatly.. Thank you for taking the time to give a more clear picture of the law.. I should be fine with a historical plate..It will not even be leaving the yard anytime soon and would be more for parades and shows than picking up stuff for the museum at this time.. Thank you very much..
One other question.. Do you have this law (CDL) on file that you could email me to print out and put in the truck to shorten any argument I may or may not have? Or do I get it from the DOT or SOS?

 

[TedG]

Chuck,

This is very well written and I thank you taking the time to pen it for us Michiganders!!!

Best regards,

 

[jasonjc]

Just remember that every state is diferent. Here in AR it's close to the same but , you can not haul more than a 1,00lbs and you can't pull a trailer.

 

[Rattlehead]

Here's the letter of the law on Michigan CDL requirements, right from the source, the Michigan Vehicle Code.

Within the Michigan Vehicle Code, it is in Section 257.312e. See #13.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(2u51lyj0dhvoen25g0vpqjaq))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-257-312e

Here is the link to the base page of the vehicle code

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(2u51lyj0dhvoen25g0vpqjaq))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-act-300-of-1949&queryid=941043&highlight=

If you want a down and dirty single page to print out, here is a link to a pdf file that lists section 257.312e.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/commercial_drivers_license_8574_7.pdf

 

[5tonpuller]

In NY Can not drive it more then 2500 miles in one year. Can not use it for what it was build for. No using it to make $$. Only to burn fuel.

 

[ida34]

Thanks for the comments. I have a PDF version of the state motor vehicle code. It can be downloaded form the SOS site.

The one thing I caution is if you read the CDL only stuff it will give you the impression that you need a CDL based on the weights in the manual. What the literature is actual saying is if you are a commercial operator these weights apply. They don't say that in plain english because it is a given that if you are reading a CDL manual you are operating commercially. I could not find a link to the PDF file on SOS site. I may have gotten it elsewhere. If anyone wants a copy let me know and I will email it to them.

 

[ida34]

This helps me greatly.. Thank you for taking the time to give a more clear picture of the law.. I should be fine with a historical plate..It will not even be leaving the yard anytime soon and would be more for parades and shows than picking up stuff for the museum at this time.. Thank you very much..
One other question.. Do you have this law (CDL) on file that you could email me to print out and put in the truck to shorten any argument I may or may not have? Or do I get it from the DOT or SOS?

I am sending you the whole thing and I will pick out the section pertaining to the need for a CDL

257.7a “Commercial motor vehicle” defined.
Sec. 7a. “Commercial motor vehicle” means a motor vehicle designed to transport 16 or more passengers,
including the driver; a motor vehicle, having a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 or more pounds; a motor
vehicle with a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more including a towed unit with a gross
vehicle weight rating of more than 10,000 pounds; or a motor vehicle carrying hazardous material and on
which is required to be posted a placard as defined and required under 49 C.F.R. parts 100 to 199. A
commercial motor vehicle does not include a vehicle used exclusively to transport personal possessions or
family members for nonbusiness purposes.

This is from the state CDL manual in the link above. You could get one from SOS or print it. The applicable paragraph is below.

vi
Are There CDL Exemptions?
The following people do NOT need a Commercial Driver License (CDL):
􀀹 ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY: Operating military vehicles with military licenses (includes National Guard).
􀀹 POLICE AND FIREFIGHTERS: Operating authorized emergency vehicles.
􀀹 FARMERS: Operating vehicles within a 150 mile radius of their farm.
• An F-endorsement is needed by farmers operating combination vehicles whose towing vehicle has a
GVWR of 26,001 pounds or more. A knowledge test, but no skills test, is required to obtain the Fendorsement.
The F-endorsement is NOT a CDL.
• Farmers who carry hazardous materials in amounts requiring placards while operating combination
vehicles whose towing vehicle has a GVWR of 26,001 pounds or more, or a single vehicle with a GVWR
of 26,001 pounds or more, need a CDL with a hazardous materials endorsement.
􀀹 INDIVIDUALS: Operating motor homes or other vehicles used exclusively to transport personal possessions
or family members, for non-business purposes.

This is the paragraph on CDLs look at the bold section

257.312e Group commercial motor vehicle designation; tests; holder of unexpired operator's
or chauffeur's license; qualifications and fees for vehicle group designation and
indorsement; F vehicle indorsement; exceptions; former indorsements; requirement for
certain indorsements to operate school bus; waiver of driving skills test; expiration;
disposition of money collected under subsection (; refund to county or municipality;
compliance with §§ 257.303 and 257.319b.
Sec. 312e. (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person, before operating a commercial motor
vehicle, shall obtain the required vehicle group designation as follows:
(a) A person, before operating a combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating of 26,001
pounds or more including a towed vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of more than 10,000 pounds,
shall procure a group A vehicle designation on his or her operator's or chauffeur's license. Unless an
indorsement or the removal of restrictions is required, a person licensed to operate a group A vehicle may
operate a group B or C vehicle without taking another test.
(b) A person, before operating a vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more,
shall procure a group B vehicle designation on his or her operator's or chauffeur's license. Unless an
indorsement or the removal of restrictions is required, a person licensed to operate a group B vehicle may
operate a group C vehicle without taking another test.
(c) A person, before operating a single vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating under 26,001 pounds
or a vehicle having a gross vehicle weight rating under 26,001 pounds towing a trailer or other vehicle and
carrying hazardous materials on which a placard is required under 49 CFR parts 100 to 199, or designed to
transport 16 or more passengers including the driver, shall procure a group C vehicle designation and a
hazardous material or passenger vehicle indorsement on his or her operator's or chauffeur's license.
(2) An applicant for a vehicle group designation shall take knowledge and driving skills tests that comply
with minimum federal standards prescribed in 49 CFR part 383 as required under this act.
(3) The license shall be issued, suspended, revoked, canceled, or renewed in accordance with this act.
(4) Except as provided in this subsection, all of the following apply:
Rendered Tuesday, August 09, 2005 Page 110 Michigan Compiled Laws Complete Through PA 103 of 2005
Ó Legislative Council, State of Michigan Courtesy of www.legislature.mi.gov
(a) If a person operates a group B passenger vehicle while taking his or her driving skills test for a P
indorsement, he or she is restricted to operating only group B or C passenger vehicles under that P
indorsement. If a person operates a group B school bus while taking his or her driving skills test for an S
indorsement, he or she is restricted to operating only group B or C school buses under that S indorsement.
(b) If a person operates a group C passenger vehicle while taking his or her driving skills test for a P
indorsement, he or she is restricted to operating only group C passenger vehicles under that P indorsement. If
a person operates a group C school bus while taking his or her driving skills test for an S indorsement, he or
she is restricted to operating only group C school buses under that S indorsement.
(c) A person who fails the air brake portion of the written or driving skills test provided under section 312f
or who takes the driving skills test provided under that section in a commercial motor vehicle that is not
equipped with air brakes shall not operate a commercial motor vehicle equipped with air brakes.
(5) A person, before operating a commercial motor vehicle, shall obtain required vehicle indorsements as
follows:
(a) A person, before operating a commercial motor vehicle pulling double trailers, shall procure the
appropriate vehicle group designation and a T vehicle indorsement under this act.
(b) A person, before operating a commercial motor vehicle that is a tank vehicle, shall procure the
appropriate vehicle group designation and an N vehicle indorsement under this act.
(c) A person, before operating a commercial motor vehicle carrying hazardous materials on which a
placard is required under 49 CFR parts 100 to 199, shall procure the appropriate vehicle group designation
and an H vehicle indorsement under this act.
(d) A person, before operating a commercial motor vehicle that is a tank vehicle carrying hazardous
material, shall procure the appropriate vehicle group designation and both an N and H vehicle indorsement,
which shall be designated by the code letter X on the person's operator's or chauffeur's license.
(e) A person, before operating a vehicle that is designed to transport 16 or more passengers including the
driver but is not a school bus shall procure the appropriate vehicle group designation and a P vehicle
indorsement under this act. An applicant for a P vehicle indorsement shall take the driving skills test in a
vehicle designed to transport 16 or more passengers including the driver.
(f) Effective October 1, 2004, a person who does not currently possess a P indorsement, before operating a
school bus designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, shall procure the appropriate
vehicle group designation, pass the knowledge tests for the P and S indorsements, and procure the P and S
vehicle indorsements under this act. An applicant for an S vehicle indorsement shall take a driving skills test
in a school bus designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, that represents the same
type of vehicle that the applicant intends to operate as a school bus.
(g) Effective October 1, 2005, a person who currently possesses a P indorsement, before operating a school
bus designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, shall procure the appropriate vehicle
group designation, pass the knowledge test for an S indorsement, and procure an S vehicle indorsement under
this act. An applicant for an S vehicle indorsement shall take a driving skills test in a school bus designed to
transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver, that represents the same type of vehicle that the
applicant intends to operate as a school bus.
(6) Until September 30, 2005, the secretary of state may waive the driving skills test for an applicant for an
S indorsement if the applicant certifies, and the secretary of state verifies, that during the 2-year period
immediately prior to applying for the school bus indorsement the applicant met all of the following
conditions:
(a) The applicant holds a valid driver license with a vehicle group designation and a P indorsement.
(b) The applicant has not had an operator's, chauffeur's, or commercial motor vehicle driver license
suspended, revoked, denied, or canceled.
(c) The applicant has not been disqualified by the United States secretary of transportation from operating
a commercial motor vehicle.
(d) The applicant has not been convicted of any disqualifying offense listed in 49 CFR 383.51(b) while
operating a commercial motor vehicle.
(e) The applicant has not been convicted of any disqualifying offense listed in 49 CFR 383.51(b) while
operating a noncommercial motor vehicle that would be a disqualifying offense under 49 CFR 383.51(b) if
the applicant had committed the offense while operating a commercial motor vehicle.
(f) The applicant has not had more than 1 conviction for a serious traffic violation as defined in 49 CFR
383.51 while operating any type of motor vehicle.
(g) Except for parking violations, the applicant has not had any conviction for a violation of any state or
local motor vehicle traffic control law involving a vehicle accident and has not been found at fault in a vehicle
accident.
Rendered Tuesday, August 09, 2005 Page 111 Michigan Compiled Laws Complete Through PA 103 of 2005
Ó Legislative Council, State of Michigan Courtesy of www.legislature.mi.gov
(h) The applicant has been regularly employed as a school bus driver for the past 2 years and has, for those
2 years, operated a school bus representing the type of school bus that the applicant intends to operate, and the
applicant provides satisfactory evidence of that employment to the secretary of state.
(7) An applicant for an indorsement shall take the knowledge and driving skills tests described and
required pursuant to 49 CFR part 383.
( The holder of an unexpired operator's or chauffeur's license may be issued a vehicle group designation
and indorsement valid for the remainder of the license upon meeting the qualifications of section 312f and
payment of the original vehicle group designation fee of $25.00 and an indorsement fee of $5.00 per
indorsement, and a corrected license fee of $18.00. A person required to procure an F vehicle indorsement
pursuant to subsection (10) shall pay an indorsement fee of $5.00.
(9) Except as otherwise provided in subsections (10) and (11), this section does not apply to a driver or
operator of a vehicle under all of the following conditions:
(a) The vehicle is controlled and operated by a farmer or an employee or family member of the farmer.
(b) The vehicle is used to transport agricultural products, farm machinery, farm supplies, or a combination
of these items, to or from a farm.
(c) The vehicle is not used in the operation of a common or contract motor carrier.
(d) The vehicle is operated within 150 miles of the farm.
(10) A person, before driving or operating a combination of vehicles having a gross vehicle weight rating
of 26,001 pounds or more on the power unit that is used as described in subsection (9)(a) to (d), shall obtain
an F vehicle indorsement. The F vehicle indorsement shall be issued upon successful completion of a
knowledge test only.
(11) A person, before driving or operating a single vehicle truck having a gross vehicle weight rating of
26,001 pounds or more or a combination of vehicles having a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 pounds or
more on the power unit that is used as described in subsection (9)(a) to (d) for carrying hazardous materials on
which a placard is required under 49 CFR parts 100 to 199, shall successfully complete both a knowledge test
and a driving skills test. Upon successful completion of the knowledge test and driving skills test, the person
shall be issued the appropriate vehicle group designation and any vehicle indorsement necessary under this
act.
(12) This section does not apply to a police officer operating an authorized emergency vehicle or to a
firefighter operating an authorized emergency vehicle who has met the driver training standards of the
Michigan fire fighters' training council.
(13) This section does not apply to a person operating a motor home or a vehicle used exclusively to
transport personal possessions or family members for nonbusiness purposes.
(14) The money collected under subsection ( for a vehicle group designation or indorsement shall be
deposited in the state treasury to the credit of the general fund. The secretary of state shall refund out of the
fees collected to each county or municipality acting as an examining officer or examining bureau $3.00 for
each applicant examined for a first designation or indorsement to an operator's or chauffeur's license and
$1.50 for each renewal designation or indorsement to an operator's or chauffeur's license, whose application
is not denied, on the condition that the money refunded shall be paid to the county or local treasurer and is
appropriated to the county, municipality, or officer or bureau receiving that money for the purpose of carrying
out this act.
(15) Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, a person operating a vehicle described in
subsections (9) and (10) is subject to the provisions of sections 303 and 319b.
History: Add. 1978, Act 139, Eff. May 1, 1979;¾Am. 1980, Act 1, Imd. Eff. Jan. 25, 1980;¾Am. 1980, Act 123, Imd. Eff. May 21,
1980;¾Am. 1980, Act 174, Imd. Eff. June 23, 1980;¾Am. 1987, Act 232, Imd. Eff. Dec. 28, 1987;¾Am. 1988, Act 346, Eff. Jan. 1,
1990;¾Am. 1989, Act 280, Imd. Eff. Dec. 26, 1989;¾Am. 1989, Act 299, Imd. Eff. Jan. 3, 1990;¾Am. 1990, Act 67, Imd. Eff. Apr.
27, 1990;¾Am. 1990, Act 181, Imd. Eff. July 18, 1990;¾Am. 1991, Act 100, Eff. Jan. 1, 1993;¾Am. 2000, Act 158, Imd. Eff. June 14,
2000;¾Am. 2002, Act 534, Eff. Oct. 1, 2002;¾Am. 2002, Act 652, Eff. Jan. 1, 2003;¾Am. 2003, Act 152, Eff. Oct. 1, 2003;¾Am.
2004, Act 362, Imd. Eff. Oct. 4, 2004.
Compiler's note: Section 2 of Act 346 of 1988 provides:
“(1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, this amendatory act shall take effect October 1, 1989.
“(2)

If you read the CDL manual without finding the paragraph above it would seem like you need a CDL for anything over 26.000lbs but this is not the case. The paragraph above is the only paragraph us non-commercial driver's need to know out of that manual.

 

[ida34]

I do not know how the smiles got in the middle. The legal speak must have just matched right up with the smile codes. LOL