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Hello All,
This problem is outlined in a troubleshooting post I'm having online with a pay site to try to help me fix my problem. Here is a copy and past of much of the information. Please help if you have an ideas...
Thanks!
Hello, I have an 6CTA8.3 in my former...
Hello, I have an 6CTA8.3 in my former military 5 ton truck. Starting problems slowly went from hard to turn over, to needing ether to start it, to only being able to start it with ether, and now it can only start with ether and seems to run fine, in neutral, but as soon as I put it in gear, it ... view full
06 May 2018 08:58
Is there a switch that could have failed that cuts off fuel to the engine when it's put into gear?
There is no ignition on this vehicle as you know, (only compression is required to light off the diesel) so something must be cutting off the fuel to the engine as soon as it's put into gear. Either something electronic, or timing? Perhaps the fuel injector pump is bad? Why would the engine run up to almost 2500 RPM in neutral but not be able to move when put into gear. Is the fuel injector pump failing a duty when it's put into gear, does it need to do something else besides just continuing to give fuel to the engine, something with timing or flow control that could be failed...seems strange that it can REV high, but not provide fuel flow to the engine when it's put into gear...
spankyjr1
Technician
Hi, my name is spanky,thank you for your question.
You mention fuel contamination has this been sitting for extended amount of time?
Did it have a lot of water in fuel?
Did you check fuel pressure?
Did you change filters before or after sea foam?
Did you use fleet guard filters or filters with the correct micron rating?
does this have a electric lift pump or just the normal manual on side of engine?
Let me know
The fuel is clean, in the tank and in the filter
No water in the fuel.
Fuel pressure is fine.
Filters have been changed after seafoam.
Using the same model filters that have worked for years.
manual primer (lift) pump, works fine manually. Engine does not start after manually priming it, (I can see the manual primer works, because I loosen the small bolt on the injector pump when priming, and pump the primer until fuel comes out of that bleed bolt)
spankyjr1
Technician
I was asking about the fuel since you said no more evidence of fuel contamination so if it did have a lot it could have wiped out fuel injection pump.
I asked about filters only because some filters the micron rating is to small which causes hard start and low power.
Just trying to eliminate everything so you are not wasting time checking things that don't need to be checked.
There is no switch that cuts off fuel when putting in gear.
I think your issue is the torque converter is stuck in lock up
What that does is make the engine and transmission a 1-1 ratio and the engine can't take it so it dies
Try jacking up rear wheels,block front wheels front and back, release brakes, start engine, then feather it into gear.
What I mean is put in and out of gear so it does not slam into gear so hard and see if it will stay running and you will notice wheels spinning fast in lower gears.
Now there is a lock up solenoid in valve body that can be stuck I would try replacing that first before condemning converter but if that does not work trans would need a rebuild as metal from converter went through trans.
That would also cause the hard starting trying to start with the converter (pump) locked up.
Please use the star rating system at top of page so I get credit from the web site for my time,
You may still ask follow up questions at no extra charge after rating.
Thank you
"I was asking about the fuel since you said no more evidence of fuel contamination so if it did have a lot it could have wiped out fuel injection pump."
Hmmm...yes, there was a lot of fuel contamination...from Bio fuel. Now it's all gone, but if that could have "wiped out" the fuel injection pump, would the fuel injection pump still be operational in the means that it currently is...once started, will continue to run/idle?
I'll look at the maintenance manual for the torque converter. Is there any way to trouble shoot switch that without jacking the vehicle? It's sitting on dirt, it's a three axle 6 wheel vehicle...hard to simply jack up.
I'm not sure about the rating bit, first time on this site, and concerned that if I rate that means I'm done...what's your motivation to see this through the end if I rate now?
Thanks, please educate me about how this works if necessary.
mark
spankyjr1
Technician
My motivation is I give you my word!
I have never left anyone hanging,, but I have seen others do it so I understand your concern.
It also states rate to close on your end but all you do is refresh the page. I always send a Thank you anyway which keeps the question open as long as you need help to assist with this question.
To rate you click on the stars at the top of page 1-5 stars on how well I assisted you,, without a rating the site keeps all the money you paid and does not share with the expert.
Hope that explains it if you have other questions about it let me know.
Back to your issue
Let me ask when you put in gear and it dies is it almost instant? If it was fuel it would stumble and die
You should only have to jack up one wheel on front drive as long as power divider is not locked,, as long as this only has 2 drive axles,, and one dummy axle for weight.
You just use a bottle jack under a u-bolt to jack up just enough to get a wheel off the ground.
You can try this and if you can rotate the wheel while in neutral with brakes released that would be enough to test.
The only other option would be to take out all the bolts connecting converter to flywheel and see how it starts.
Now that won't tell you about putting in gear and dying it would only tell you that is the cause of hard starting.
I would not do anything about the pump right now I don't think that is the issue but as soon as you can drive it if it smokes or has low power then we could troubleshoot some more
Let me know
spankyjr1
Technician
Also when it dies does it torque the engine Up?
And yes the fuel pump could do this hard start if worn out from contamination. (should not cause it to die putting in gear though)
Just note: for a worn pump you would need to verify pump not sucking air before condemning a pump.
you would put a clear line between T/P and Injection pump get running and rev engine and look for air bubbles if you see bubbles you have a leak before the T/P.
Sucking air would need to be repaired first
Also just so you know I work and have a life so I am not always around so it may take time to reply back
But I always reply.
Are you Military or how did you get truck from auction?
Talk later
I'm a retired Marine, and I use the vehicle for parades and such to bring awareness to the military and to support charities. I have a big event upcoming for Memorial Day, and was hoping it'll be running by then. Of course I want you to be able to extract maximum pay out of the efforts you make and as little go to the middleman as possible
Q: "Also when it dies does it torque the engine Up?"
A: When it dies, it just dies, no sound or any other symptom other than it just dies. Like it gets shut off
I have already checked with a clear line, I see no air at all, I've run it to max RPM and no air at all
I also had a clear return line back to the clean 5 gallon tank I was running the engine from, I can see no contamination anymore coming from the fuel system. All filters are clean and replaced.
So if the injector pump "should not cause it to die putting in gear though" I must have two problems; one that it won't start without ether (perhaps the fuel injector pump) and two that it dies when it gets put into gear. That's been my problem...thinking that there are actually two problems, and not just one. Seems random and coincidental that there are two separate problems because BOTH problems started out together...it got harder and harder to start and then only with ether, and simultaneously it would stall when being put into gear unless the engine was warmed up and held at high idle before being put into gear. I really believe it has to be the SAME problem since both problems came on simultaneously...
spankyjr1
Technician
Thank you for your service!
I would like you to check power going to the shut down solenoid with key on and during cranking, making sure voltage is at least within 1 v of battery voltage, then put in gear and see if voltage is dropping out.
I have seen something shorting out wiring when put in gear that causes loss of power to solenoid which would cause shutdown.
You should have 3 wires on shutdown, one is ground, one is power with key on, and one power during cranking.
If you have a single wire solenoid power all the time with key on and cranking
The solenoid can also cause hard start if it is not being pulled all the way in.
With this type of injection pump and nozzle set up return fuel air is not a issue, it would only cause a miss on one cylinder, now if this was a electronic engine air would effect multiple cylinders at once.
Let me know
spankyjr1
Technician
If your solenoid has outside linkage make sure it is going full travel both directions with stop lever.
Solenoid has been bypassed, it failed years ago and I took it off. Truck has been working great without it.
See attached photo. That cable is called "CABLE – Connects modulator to fuel pump". Is there a solenoid here?
I still think that since both the putting into gear and stalling was intermittent, and the hard starting was intermittent, then both problems are caused by the fuel injector pump...if I fix the start problem first, perhaps the putting into gear problem will be fixed at the same time?
I want to ensure that you get paid properly here, do they only pay a flat fee?
I tried to attach the maintenance manual, but the software here doesn't all the attachment for some reason.
mark
spankyjr1
Technician
Yes it is a flat fee I get paid when a rating is made of 3-5, after you rate they do allow tips
Make sure your shutdown cable is releasing all the way at pump and it's not holding it part way on.
I see 2 cables I assume one is for shutdown and one for throttle hold?
The electric going down by trans goes to a potentiometer (probably looks about the size of a can of beer) that tells trans throttle position for shift points
I don't think it's a fuel issue or pump since you can get more fuel by revving up engine and it still dies putting in gear, seeing it doesn't have a shutdown solenoid that can't happen.
Still think it's the converter that is the only other thing that explains both issues coming and going then stayed all the time.
When the converters go bad they can be locked when hot then after you cool down would start working okay until hot again, that explains issue coming and going, after a time doing this they stay locked.
When you rev engine it it a fast response up to 2500 or slow?
Any smoke out exhaust if so what color?
I see 2 cables I assume one is for shutdown and one for throttle hold?
send manual to mustang spanky@rocketmail.com and I'll take a look.
spankyjr1
Technician
Just to make sure have you tried starting while holding throttle down?
Want to switch to a live phone call?
If you prefer, we can talk live on the phone to make it easier to get all the help you need and ask follow-up questions.
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Yes it is a flat fee I get paid when a rating is made of 3-5, after you rate they do allow tips
Great, I'll take care of you! Promise...this isn't an easy one, I know...
Make sure your shutdown cable is releasing all the way at pump and it's not holding it part way on.
Shutdown cable is releasing all the way. It takes a very long pull to engage it.
I see 2 cables I assume one is for shutdown and one for throttle hold?
Exactly, manual throttle by hand to adjust idle high and walk away
The electric going down by trans goes to a potentiometer (probably looks about the size of a can of beer) that tells trans throttle position for shift points
Could this be failed?
I don't think it's a fuel issue or pump since you can get more fuel by revving up engine and it still dies putting in gear, seeing it doesn't have a shutdown solenoid that can't happen.
But the "modulator connection to fuel pump" in the diagram, could that, if failed, shut down the engine?
Still think it's the converter that is the only other thing that explains both issues coming and going then stayed all the time.
Not sure what you mean by the "converter"...which part is that or is that slang? I don't see a converter on the manual. I will attach and send to you
When the converters go bad they can be locked when hot then after you cool down would start working okay until hot again, that explains issue coming and going, after a time doing this they stay locked.
Ok, gotta find that part...but still curious why the engine won't start without ether? Would the converter have that as a symptom as well?
When you rev engine it it a fast response up to 2500 or slow?
FAST
Any smoke out exhaust if so what color?
Exhaust is clear and perfect
I see 2 cables I assume one is for shutdown and one for throttle hold?
Yes
This problem is outlined in a troubleshooting post I'm having online with a pay site to try to help me fix my problem. Here is a copy and past of much of the information. Please help if you have an ideas...
Thanks!
Hello, I have an 6CTA8.3 in my former...
Hello, I have an 6CTA8.3 in my former military 5 ton truck. Starting problems slowly went from hard to turn over, to needing ether to start it, to only being able to start it with ether, and now it can only start with ether and seems to run fine, in neutral, but as soon as I put it in gear, it ... view full
06 May 2018 08:58
06 May 2018 09:03
I have cleaned the fuel injectors by running the truck off a 5 gallon tank of diesel with sea foam and letting it run for an hour, there is no more evidence of contamination in the fuel lines or in the injector pump, the fuel filters were changed before all of this. The truck will NOT start on its own (ether only into the air intake) and then she runs perfectly...BUT, will not move, seems as soon as it is put into gear, even with higher RPM, it will just stall, not even like it's trying. Like it just gets shut off. The fuel is clean, the filters clean, the lift pump primes just fine.06 May 2018 09:12
The truck has a transmission neutral switch that prevents the engine STARTER from engaging when not in neutral. Is there a switch that could have failed that cuts off fuel to the engine when it's put into gear?
There is no ignition on this vehicle as you know, (only compression is required to light off the diesel) so something must be cutting off the fuel to the engine as soon as it's put into gear. Either something electronic, or timing? Perhaps the fuel injector pump is bad? Why would the engine run up to almost 2500 RPM in neutral but not be able to move when put into gear. Is the fuel injector pump failing a duty when it's put into gear, does it need to do something else besides just continuing to give fuel to the engine, something with timing or flow control that could be failed...seems strange that it can REV high, but not provide fuel flow to the engine when it's put into gear...
07 May 2018 04:29
spankyjr1
Technician
Hi, my name is spanky,thank you for your question.
You mention fuel contamination has this been sitting for extended amount of time?
Did it have a lot of water in fuel?
Did you check fuel pressure?
Did you change filters before or after sea foam?
Did you use fleet guard filters or filters with the correct micron rating?
does this have a electric lift pump or just the normal manual on side of engine?
Let me know
07 May 2018 10:50
Hello Spanky, The fuel is clean, in the tank and in the filter
No water in the fuel.
Fuel pressure is fine.
Filters have been changed after seafoam.
Using the same model filters that have worked for years.
manual primer (lift) pump, works fine manually. Engine does not start after manually priming it, (I can see the manual primer works, because I loosen the small bolt on the injector pump when priming, and pump the primer until fuel comes out of that bleed bolt)
07 May 2018 10:53
...I said the "engine does not start after manually priming it". It doesn't start on its own, it needs ether to kick it over, then it runs and idles fine!07 May 2018 11:26
spankyjr1
Technician
I was asking about the fuel since you said no more evidence of fuel contamination so if it did have a lot it could have wiped out fuel injection pump.
I asked about filters only because some filters the micron rating is to small which causes hard start and low power.
Just trying to eliminate everything so you are not wasting time checking things that don't need to be checked.
There is no switch that cuts off fuel when putting in gear.
I think your issue is the torque converter is stuck in lock up
What that does is make the engine and transmission a 1-1 ratio and the engine can't take it so it dies
Try jacking up rear wheels,block front wheels front and back, release brakes, start engine, then feather it into gear.
What I mean is put in and out of gear so it does not slam into gear so hard and see if it will stay running and you will notice wheels spinning fast in lower gears.
Now there is a lock up solenoid in valve body that can be stuck I would try replacing that first before condemning converter but if that does not work trans would need a rebuild as metal from converter went through trans.
That would also cause the hard starting trying to start with the converter (pump) locked up.
Please use the star rating system at top of page so I get credit from the web site for my time,
You may still ask follow up questions at no extra charge after rating.
Thank you
07 May 2018 11:41
Hello Spanky, "I was asking about the fuel since you said no more evidence of fuel contamination so if it did have a lot it could have wiped out fuel injection pump."
Hmmm...yes, there was a lot of fuel contamination...from Bio fuel. Now it's all gone, but if that could have "wiped out" the fuel injection pump, would the fuel injection pump still be operational in the means that it currently is...once started, will continue to run/idle?
I'll look at the maintenance manual for the torque converter. Is there any way to trouble shoot switch that without jacking the vehicle? It's sitting on dirt, it's a three axle 6 wheel vehicle...hard to simply jack up.
I'm not sure about the rating bit, first time on this site, and concerned that if I rate that means I'm done...what's your motivation to see this through the end if I rate now?
Thanks, please educate me about how this works if necessary.
mark
07 May 2018 11:58
spankyjr1
Technician
My motivation is I give you my word!
I have never left anyone hanging,, but I have seen others do it so I understand your concern.
It also states rate to close on your end but all you do is refresh the page. I always send a Thank you anyway which keeps the question open as long as you need help to assist with this question.
To rate you click on the stars at the top of page 1-5 stars on how well I assisted you,, without a rating the site keeps all the money you paid and does not share with the expert.
Hope that explains it if you have other questions about it let me know.
Back to your issue
Let me ask when you put in gear and it dies is it almost instant? If it was fuel it would stumble and die
You should only have to jack up one wheel on front drive as long as power divider is not locked,, as long as this only has 2 drive axles,, and one dummy axle for weight.
You just use a bottle jack under a u-bolt to jack up just enough to get a wheel off the ground.
You can try this and if you can rotate the wheel while in neutral with brakes released that would be enough to test.
The only other option would be to take out all the bolts connecting converter to flywheel and see how it starts.
Now that won't tell you about putting in gear and dying it would only tell you that is the cause of hard starting.
I would not do anything about the pump right now I don't think that is the issue but as soon as you can drive it if it smokes or has low power then we could troubleshoot some more
Let me know
07 May 2018 12:17
spankyjr1
Technician
Also when it dies does it torque the engine Up?
And yes the fuel pump could do this hard start if worn out from contamination. (should not cause it to die putting in gear though)
Just note: for a worn pump you would need to verify pump not sucking air before condemning a pump.
you would put a clear line between T/P and Injection pump get running and rev engine and look for air bubbles if you see bubbles you have a leak before the T/P.
Sucking air would need to be repaired first
Also just so you know I work and have a life so I am not always around so it may take time to reply back
But I always reply.
Are you Military or how did you get truck from auction?
Talk later
07 May 2018 04:04
Hello Spanky, I'm a retired Marine, and I use the vehicle for parades and such to bring awareness to the military and to support charities. I have a big event upcoming for Memorial Day, and was hoping it'll be running by then. Of course I want you to be able to extract maximum pay out of the efforts you make and as little go to the middleman as possible
Q: "Also when it dies does it torque the engine Up?"
A: When it dies, it just dies, no sound or any other symptom other than it just dies. Like it gets shut off
I have already checked with a clear line, I see no air at all, I've run it to max RPM and no air at all
I also had a clear return line back to the clean 5 gallon tank I was running the engine from, I can see no contamination anymore coming from the fuel system. All filters are clean and replaced.
So if the injector pump "should not cause it to die putting in gear though" I must have two problems; one that it won't start without ether (perhaps the fuel injector pump) and two that it dies when it gets put into gear. That's been my problem...thinking that there are actually two problems, and not just one. Seems random and coincidental that there are two separate problems because BOTH problems started out together...it got harder and harder to start and then only with ether, and simultaneously it would stall when being put into gear unless the engine was warmed up and held at high idle before being put into gear. I really believe it has to be the SAME problem since both problems came on simultaneously...
08 May 2018 04:16
spankyjr1
Technician
Thank you for your service!
I would like you to check power going to the shut down solenoid with key on and during cranking, making sure voltage is at least within 1 v of battery voltage, then put in gear and see if voltage is dropping out.
I have seen something shorting out wiring when put in gear that causes loss of power to solenoid which would cause shutdown.
You should have 3 wires on shutdown, one is ground, one is power with key on, and one power during cranking.
If you have a single wire solenoid power all the time with key on and cranking
The solenoid can also cause hard start if it is not being pulled all the way in.
With this type of injection pump and nozzle set up return fuel air is not a issue, it would only cause a miss on one cylinder, now if this was a electronic engine air would effect multiple cylinders at once.
Let me know
08 May 2018 04:25
spankyjr1
Technician
If your solenoid has outside linkage make sure it is going full travel both directions with stop lever.
08 May 2018 11:55
Hi Spanky, Solenoid has been bypassed, it failed years ago and I took it off. Truck has been working great without it.
See attached photo. That cable is called "CABLE – Connects modulator to fuel pump". Is there a solenoid here?
I still think that since both the putting into gear and stalling was intermittent, and the hard starting was intermittent, then both problems are caused by the fuel injector pump...if I fix the start problem first, perhaps the putting into gear problem will be fixed at the same time?
I want to ensure that you get paid properly here, do they only pay a flat fee?
I tried to attach the maintenance manual, but the software here doesn't all the attachment for some reason.
mark
08 May 2018 12:29
spankyjr1
Technician
Yes it is a flat fee I get paid when a rating is made of 3-5, after you rate they do allow tips
Make sure your shutdown cable is releasing all the way at pump and it's not holding it part way on.
I see 2 cables I assume one is for shutdown and one for throttle hold?
The electric going down by trans goes to a potentiometer (probably looks about the size of a can of beer) that tells trans throttle position for shift points
I don't think it's a fuel issue or pump since you can get more fuel by revving up engine and it still dies putting in gear, seeing it doesn't have a shutdown solenoid that can't happen.
Still think it's the converter that is the only other thing that explains both issues coming and going then stayed all the time.
When the converters go bad they can be locked when hot then after you cool down would start working okay until hot again, that explains issue coming and going, after a time doing this they stay locked.
When you rev engine it it a fast response up to 2500 or slow?
Any smoke out exhaust if so what color?
I see 2 cables I assume one is for shutdown and one for throttle hold?
send manual to mustang spanky@rocketmail.com and I'll take a look.
08 May 2018 01:13
spankyjr1
Technician
Just to make sure have you tried starting while holding throttle down?
Want to switch to a live phone call?
If you prefer, we can talk live on the phone to make it easier to get all the help you need and ask follow-up questions.
Amount: $26
100% Satisfaction Guaranteed
Call me
By clicking "Call me" you agree to the additional amount and to credit the Expert.
[HR][/HR]My goal is to provide you with excellent service. If you are satisfied, please rate me. If you have follow-up questions on this same topic, use the reply box below. To start a new conversation with me on a new topic, request me again.
08 May 2018 02:57
Spanky, see below...Yes it is a flat fee I get paid when a rating is made of 3-5, after you rate they do allow tips
Great, I'll take care of you! Promise...this isn't an easy one, I know...
Make sure your shutdown cable is releasing all the way at pump and it's not holding it part way on.
Shutdown cable is releasing all the way. It takes a very long pull to engage it.
I see 2 cables I assume one is for shutdown and one for throttle hold?
Exactly, manual throttle by hand to adjust idle high and walk away
The electric going down by trans goes to a potentiometer (probably looks about the size of a can of beer) that tells trans throttle position for shift points
Could this be failed?
I don't think it's a fuel issue or pump since you can get more fuel by revving up engine and it still dies putting in gear, seeing it doesn't have a shutdown solenoid that can't happen.
But the "modulator connection to fuel pump" in the diagram, could that, if failed, shut down the engine?
Still think it's the converter that is the only other thing that explains both issues coming and going then stayed all the time.
Not sure what you mean by the "converter"...which part is that or is that slang? I don't see a converter on the manual. I will attach and send to you
When the converters go bad they can be locked when hot then after you cool down would start working okay until hot again, that explains issue coming and going, after a time doing this they stay locked.
Ok, gotta find that part...but still curious why the engine won't start without ether? Would the converter have that as a symptom as well?
When you rev engine it it a fast response up to 2500 or slow?
FAST
Any smoke out exhaust if so what color?
Exhaust is clear and perfect
I see 2 cables I assume one is for shutdown and one for throttle hold?
Yes
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