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MEP-002 idling

m16ty

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I'm in the process of making a deal on a MEP-002 and have been reading up on them here and in the TMs. The question I have is about idling. I know you're not supposed to idle the gensets and what happens when you do. I have some reservations taking a cold diesel engine, starting it, and then open the throttle wide open. It just goes against all I've ever known about engines and diesels in particular.

I've done my searching and most threads I've read says "don't let them idle long". How long is long? Is it ok to let the engine warm up a little before you open it up?
 

Isaac-1

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Like he said, you know you did it too long when you burn out the AC voltage regulator. We commonly get people on here that have the exact same feeling you do, they just don't usually show up until AFTER they have killed their voltage regulators. Why the army put a manual throttle that allows idling on these sets has always amazed me. Not that I am not grateful, my MEP-002a came from GL with lots of brand new parts and filters, but not producing AC due to burned out voltage regulator, if someone in the army had not burned out the output transistor on my voltage regulator, it would likely not have had so little wear on all those shiny new parts.

Ike

p.s. If you feel you MUST idle it, keep it to a few seconds and if you know how to work on electronics go ahead and order some spare output transistors, otherwise get it to speed as soon as you start it and never touch the adjustment knob again, except to fine tune the speed
 
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LuckyDog

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Firing it up and letting it go right to high speed is NOT a problem.
My dad always said, what kills most engines is lugging (running to low an RPM).

Remember Fast Idles on older cars???? Ran them fast until they warmed up, then lowered the idle speed.

Just DO NOT put a load on it while it is warming up.
Run it at speed, but give it a minute or two to warm up.
 

Triple Jim

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Take a look at some recent testing I did with my MEP-003A. Specifically, I measured the output current of the voltage regulator with the generator's main breaker off, at different engine speeds. Since in this system the regulator reduces its output when it wants to increase AC output, it is not stressed when idling. Please read the whole thread before sending thugs to my house. :-D At this point, my best guess is that running the generator at high load at well above 60 Hz would be most likely to stress the regulator's output transistor. In this case, the regulator would have to send a lot of current to CVT1 in an attempt to hold the voltage down to the setpoint.

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?100543-MEP-002-003-engine-servicing

 
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1800 Diesel

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Working in the shipyards in Louisiana & Mississippi for many years, I have lost count of how many diesel generators we installed on tugs, towboats, oil field supply vessels. Without exception all of the governors on the gensets were set up to run the engines (from a cold start) to their governed speed (either 1200 or 1800RPM). Some of the units were started by electric starters & the others by air starters--it didn't matter...when you started the engine, it ran right up to speed and then after a brief warm-up & freq adjustment, load was applied. For emergency gensets, the unit was required by the CFR USCG regulations to carry its full rated load within 45 seconds of a cold start.

Bringing the engine to speed quickly is actually better for the engine in that faster oil pump rotation makes for higher volume flow and pressure, thus providing lubrication to the main & rod bearings & valve train components in a shorter time. The faster run speed also facilitates shorter warm-up time so the oil flows better in a shorter time. The 15/40 oil properties allow for good flow in a cold-start environment--this is one of the reasons it's always good to use the 15/40 instead of a 30 or 40 weight viscosity oil....

Anyway--yes it's hard to get beyond the concept of running up to speed at light-off, since we've been conditioned (wrt our car & truck engines) over the years to start up and idle a while prior to getting on the road, but keep in mind that idling an engine is not exactly good for the rotating components, expecially the top end. With a few exceptions, the engines of taxi cabs & city police vehicles generally don't live very long & this is due to extended periods of idling....
 

melbar

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I have a MEP 002. Has run great for a few years. Now after start up and while the engine is running, it stops producing electricity after about 15 minuets. The throttle is set to maintain 60 Mh and is never touched.The engine is allowed to run for several minuets before the out put switch is turned on. I flashed it twice and the problem still exist. HELP.
 

Guyfang

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Melbar,

Start a thread for your problem. That way everyone can see what your problem is, and help you. Right now, all anyone can see is a thread about idling a -002A. So no one who might see that, and could help, will be able to. Start a new thread and I guarantee lots of help will come your way!
 

Chainbreaker

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Get a Kill-A-Watt meter (they are handy to have and don't cost that much ~$25). Plug it into genset convenience outlet before starting using a short extension cord. Set meter to read Hz. Then start engine (remember to not let go of start control until oil pressure is up & stable) then immediately adjust your throttle control until you are reading 61.5 Hz no load. That will put you in the 1800 RPM range which is not "Wide Open Throttle". After it has warmed up and maintains 61.5 Hz you can shut it down and then leave the throttle alone. You should then always start it at that throttle setting and only adjust as necessary to maintain ~60 Hz (ranges while under load & fluctuating between 58 - 61.5 Hz are fine) under normal loads.
 

Hectorsosa

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If it makes you feel any better I've got a 2012 RAM pickup with the 5.7l hemi engine. If you turn the key and let it run it idles for a minute at 1200-1300 rpm, then settles down to about 850. If the big boys are doing it on a relatively new aluminum block gas engine I don't worry too much about a 30 year old cast iron diesel block.
 

Guyfang

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OK, I went to the guy I call Obi Wan. He is about the last step on the ladder for power gen knowledge. I copied a few posts from Triple Jim. Sent them off to Obi Wan. I will copy and paste the posts from Triple Jim, my post to Obi Wan and his reply. I really wish I could use his name, but he still works for the gov. May not be good. So for the time being that's how it is. I did not include the CC line, mentioned in Obi Wan's answer, but do know the man fairly well. As stated, he is one of three of the big honchos in the Engineering Dept. If him and Obi Wan both agree, its the word I would live by.



First message from Triple Jim:

I got to thinking about this no-idle rule for the MEP-002A and MEP-003A. The regulator controls the exciter's field by applying current to the control windings of CVT1. When current is applied, CVT1 reduces its output to the rectifier bridge A4, and current to the exciter windings is in turn reduced. If the engine is run at idle, or speed lower than 1800 RPM, the AC output of the generator is reduced, and the regulator board will try to bring it up. It does this by reducing its output to control windings of CVT1 so that CVT1 is at maximum output. This means that the output transistor of the regulator board is working the least when trying to increase the output of the generator, and is least likely to overheat and fail.

Maybe other generators with a different scheme of regulation do indeed stress their regulators if the engine is run slowly, and maybe the recommendation of not idling them for more than a few seconds is valid for them, but it looks like that problem is not present on the 002 and 003. I have no doubt that output transistors fail on the 002 and 003 regulators, but it would be more likely for that to happen from running the generator unloaded, forcing the regulator to work hard to keep the output down.

Sometime soon I plan to run my MEP-003A at idle for a while, shut it off, and feel the regulator's output transistor. I'll let you know what I learn, but I have no doubt that it will be cool.



Second message from Triple Jim:


OK, I just ran my MEP-003A. First I disconnected the output of the main transistor at terminal 17 of the regulator board. This terminal sinks the current through the exciter field control transformer CVT1 supplied from terminal 14, which is in turn supplied by rectifying diodes CR6 and CR7 (maybe CR8 and CR9 in some boards), which are supplied AC by T1. I connected a Fluke 87 meter between wire X39C16 and terminal 17 so that it reconnected the wire and read the current that the main output transistor was carrying.

Then I started the generator as usual, running at 1800 RPM. The current was about 230 mA to keep the output at 240 Volts. Then I reduced the engine speed with the governor cable as low as it would go. This really isn't what I'd call idle speed, but it's considerably slower than 1800 RPM. The current went down to 130 mA. After letting it run like this for a couple minutes, I stopped the engine and felt Q3, which is the big transistor on the board. It was about the temperature of everything else in the control box... cold.

This is not a recommendation that everyone go out and idle his MEP-002A or MEP-003A. I do hope it provides some information and dispels a myth. As I said above, there may be other reasons that it's not good, or even bad, to idle these generators, but so far all I've thought of is that it wouldn't be good to do it while a load is connected.

Also, as I said above, only the MEP-002A's -12 "OPERATOR AND ORGANIZATIONAL MAINTENANCE MANUAL" has the warning against idling, the MEP-003A's comparable manual does not.

I have no doubt that Q3 sometimes fails, and I'm sure that's not the only component on the board that does, but at this point, I do not believe that Q3 or anything else in the regulator will be damaged, or even stressed, by idling.


My email to Obi Wan:

Obi Wan,

I darken your door once again. The above text is from a guy I know who has built and sells AC and DC volt regs for the -002A. Once again we were chewing the rag about idling the gen sets. Since 1973, It's been drilled into my hard head not to do that. The guy who wrote these messages tends to disagree. The second message was his test results. Is there a good reason to not idle? Or not? If so, why?



Obi Wan's answer:



CLASSIFICATION: UNCLASSIFIED

Guy!

I used to idle those things too. Grew up on the farm. Made sense to assist the engine and lube systems like all other engines. I was also a hard Headed dumb as*. Just ask my wife, she can tell you.

Unfortunately, the following occurs. The regulator continues to try to keep output voltage at set levels, usually 120/208VAC (today operators do not remove the load and wonder why the fault comes up from extra exciter current and voltage). Loaded or not, in order to do that as the man says the regulator increases the exciter voltages so to keep the main gen output. He also figures incorrectly that the current goes down. That saw toothed wave acts like AC before the diode board and inductance kicks in. CERDEC tests indicate this increases transistor current while the transistor PIV is reached and regulator action and the current thru the external Diode board. Current heats up these devices. It also made more sparking on slip rings and brushes in the old diesels. I changed enough regulator transistors on the next diesel generation and when I mentioned it, " to just shut it down", I changed less of them. I was now a turn coat. Traitor. Supply demands show more components used costing more tax dollars if you idle them down. Double whammy and I had to eat crow. Had an old Crusty Warrant Officer who yelled at me a lot over that idling thing as he eventually told me the same as I am telling you. Thus a decision was made before the new DED gens hit the active force while we had the post-Vietnam diesel 15-60 KWs and the gassers to just shut them down. I had all gassers and it hurt nothing I ever had. I was at SHAPE in late 70s now the Supervisor and burnt out the regulator transistor and had to change it losing my sleep period during an exercise idling it down at no load on a MEP-006. The one before the 006A. It was on loan. You find the same with precise gens especially. They figured that crap all out because of a turbine generator repairer, who must remain nameless, but had a reputation of knowing the systems. Thus his supervisor (old B*stard Warrant Officers as Mata put it ) had the CERDEC tests done(CW3 ****** later CW4). Your colleague needs to just contact Caterpillar power and ask and they say the same thing independently of US ARMY. Cummins power says the same thing. Several of the issues we had in the WAR zone on civilian gens were the from the idling issue as units destroyed the regulators in a bunch of them. Solid state don't seem to play with that stuff very well. Oh well, getting back to the 70s, Resolving the fight CERDEC results were published quieting everyone in those days at Belvoir. I thus after that one became one of those Warrant Officers like you did. I was proved wrong as I idled them down. Helps engines, bad for regulators and external diode boards, costs more money to run the gens. I was hard headed. Turbines did not idle, just unloaded but the RPM stayed the same at around 42,K RPM. Should have realized the same for diesels but I was a dumb as* 52F3H. Anyway TQG gens were more touchy about that but I was already a converted fixer since 1979.

I can say I have had many chopper rides being shot at because operators of 002A-006A gens did not know they had to pull out the speed control. They figured once set at 60 HZ and their loads did not change they did not need to play with it and once not taught to younger Soldiers it lead to not operating correctly leading further into laziness as to today where over 90% are no longer licensed, and no one cares. Toasting a Soldier is not my idea of a good day and it is coming.


In the CC line is one of the three leads of the engineering department. I'm sure he has more but it is much easier to just say to, "Run no load to cool down the main gen and then; just shut em down"
 
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