MEP-004A, No output

[KLChurch]

Guyfang requested I create a new post because of my other post is way too long and we are going to a different issue.
At this point I believe we have fixed most of the problems of getting the Gen motor to start up.
Now we are going to need info on the startup procedures so we don't blow something up.
At this point I have started this sucker up and held the start up for 15 secs.
The volt meter showed 100 volts after 5 secs.
After I released the start it when to 0 volts.
Still in process of doing the rest of Guyfangs instructions.
Kris

 

[KLChurch]

This is from Guyfang
Now when the gen set is cold, go around to the left side, and open the front door. In between the side of the gen set and the radiator, you SHOULD see a handle. When you push it down, it SHOULD spring right back up. The manual shutter control is what you have your hand on. Its supposed to work by itself. When you run the set, always close all doors. That way the gen set warms itself up right, and keeps itself cool enough. As the gen set reaches operation temp, (about 180) the loovers, (on the front of the set behind the grill) should open up. this way the set runs just right. Now these sets are kinda old. The loover control may not work right, or maybe adjusted wrong. There is also SUPPOSED to be a short rope with a hook on it to keep the loovers open, in case the control will not work right. That way you can continue to run, and not overheat the set. The loover control has bees wax in it to push a piston out, to open/close the control, regulating the engine temp. This is something you can check. Close it up, start it up, and read a book! Watch the loovers. Do they open up after a while?

Next, earlier you told us that you had no hertz and volts on the meters. I am assuming the gen set still is that way. You should not assume that in fact it has no volts. TEST. TEST. TEST. Because I am here to tell you, assuming will bite you in the patootie. So go to the left side of the set. Open the rear door. the CB2, (output contactor) is there in front of you. Remove the two covers from it. Start the set. Remember to hold S2 up a bit longer, 5-10 seconds. Set runs, and let it warm up a minuet or two. Close the S3, (AC out put switch) and see if the light comes on. If it doesn't, Flip up the S7, and when its light comes on, Try the S3 again. Light come on? If you still do not have Volts/Hertz on the meter, go back around to the CB2, and measure between the terminals. From one side to the other. AC volts. Do the front three terminals, then the rear three. Got voltage? If you do not have voltage front or rear, we can ASSUME that the main gen hasn't lit off, (been excited). No out put, so no load test. Yet.

 

[KLChurch]

The posts are kind of upside down. My post is results from his post.
Kris

 

[KLChurch]

Started the gen again. Put it in start for ten secs.
Ran the gen for 1 min.
Put the S3 switch on closed.
Light came on.
Kris

 

[Guyfang]

Did you do this in the normal running mode, or in S7 bypass mode? Did you measure AC voltage at the CB2, or at the output terminals?

 

[Guyfang]

This is from Guyfang
Now when the gen set is cold, go around to the left side, and open the front door. In between the side of the gen set and the radiator, you SHOULD see a handle. When you push it down, it SHOULD spring right back up. The manual shutter control is what you have your hand on. Its supposed to work by itself. When you run the set, always close all doors. That way the gen set warms itself up right, and keeps itself cool enough. As the gen set reaches operation temp, (about 180) the loovers, (on the front of the set behind the grill) should open up. this way the set runs just right. Now these sets are kinda old. The loover control may not work right, or maybe adjusted wrong. There is also SUPPOSED to be a short rope with a hook on it to keep the loovers open, in case the control will not work right. That way you can continue to run, and not overheat the set. The loover control has bees wax in it to push a piston out, to open/close the control, regulating the engine temp. This is something you can check. Close it up, start it up, and read a book! Watch the loovers. Do they open up after a while?

The above is not a show stopper, but helps you get to know this beast, and insures less problems later.

Next, earlier you told us that you had no hertz and volts on the meters. I am assuming the gen set still is that way. You should not assume that in fact it has no volts. TEST. TEST. TEST. Because I am here to tell you, assuming will bite you in the patootie. So go to the left side of the set. Open the rear door. the CB2, (output contactor) is there in front of you. Remove the two covers from it. Start the set. Remember to hold S2 up a bit longer, 5-10 seconds. Set runs, and let it warm up a minuet or two. Close the S3, (AC out put switch) and see if the light comes on. If it doesn't, Flip up the S7, and when its light comes on, Try the S3 again. Light come on? If you still do not have Volts/Hertz on the meter, go back around to the CB2, and measure between the terminals. From one side to the other. AC volts. Do the front three terminals, then the rear three. Got voltage? If you do not have voltage front or rear, we can ASSUME that the main gen hasn't lit off, (been excited). No out put, so no load test. Yet.

Just while the CB2 closed, and the light came on, is no assurance that the set is making VAC. BUT, it does tell us that most, if not all of the basic DC circuits are working. Very important. The CB2 is purely a VDC circuit. It has nothing to do with VAC, other then let it loose from the set. The CB2 has a set of secondary contacts in it that turn on the DS6, (CB2 on light)

 

[KLChurch]

So what do you think we need to do now?
Kris

 

[Guyfang]

Start it up normally. Since you have already done this, we know the VDC circuits are good. Since you have turned on CB2, we know that's good. Both functions prove all your engine Safty switches are good. Do any initiative lights come on?

You reported earlier that VAC came up during start up, then dropped off. So let's get it started, CB2 closed and you measure at the load terminals for VAC. If no vac is present, go to the CB2 and measure at both sides of CB2. If no voltage is there, go back to the S2 and hold it in the start position. Do the meters come up? If so, let S2 go. vAC drop off? Or will the meter still read VAC? Also don't forget, the engine needs to run at the right RPM. RPM=hertz. If you do not have VAC, the hertz meter will not read. So if the engine is running to slow, increase engin speed. If the throttle cable is all the the way in, it's too slow. Let's see if we can produce power now.

 

[KLChurch]

This is what I've done so far testing.
Started up the gen and held the start for 15 secs
Volt meter showed 100volts and herts was bouncing a little.
Let the start go back to the run and volts went to zero and no more herts bouncing.
No indicators lights on at this time or anytime during the test except at the first time I hit the run. Low oil pressure light lit up until the engine was running for a couple of secs.
Then while the engine was running for a couple of mins I hit the start again and the volts showed 100 again and herts jumping the same way.
Next I increased the voltage increase and then hit the start and while the engine running. All of this was done without shutting off the engine. Volts increased to 105 volts so I believe that the increaser is working.
All this time also there was no AC ouput load on the Gen.
Next I hit the closed breaker switch. No Volts and no herts jumping. The Breaker light came on.
During this operation I hit the start switch and got 105 volts and hertz jumping. Let off no volts and no herts and breaker light still on.
Kris

 

[robertsears1]

As Guyfang said above, have you verified that the engine is in the rpm ballpark? I am not very familiar with a 004 but I do have a 003 and 804s. On the 003 and I believe the 004, you have a throttle which is not present on the 80X series. I once had the spring slip on the throttle when I mistakenly pulled it to idle (which you should never do on these generators) and it sure sounds familiar to what you are seeing. I would not trust the panel gauges until you can verify with a voltmeter. Lowes sells something called the Kill A Watt which plugs into the convenience outlet and I am pretty sure works if the main breaker is closed or open. You can then set your throttle to get 60 hz or also do it with a meter that has hertz setting. Are you reading volts off the output lugs, convenience outlet, or the panel gauges?
Robert

 

[Guyfang]

As Guyfang said above, have you verified that the engine is in the rpm ballpark? I am not very familiar with a 004 but I do have a 003 and 804s. On the 003 and I believe the 004, you have a throttle which is not present on the 80X series (True, except for the throttle on the 802 and 803 models). I once had the spring slip on the throttle when I mistakenly pulled it to idle (which you should never do on these generators) and it sure sounds familiar to what you are seeing. I would not trust the panel gauges until you can verify with a voltmeter. Lowes sells something called the Kill A Watt, (only problem with this or any other hertz meter is we need a AC output. It would apear that while we have one, its not constant) which plugs into the convenience outlet and I am pretty sure works if the main breaker is closed or open. You can then set your throttle to get 60 hz or also do it with a meter that has hertz setting. Are you reading volts off the output lugs, convenience outlet, or the panel gauges?
Robert

-

 

[Guyfang]

This is what I've done so far testing.
Started up the gen and held the start for 15 secs
Volt meter showed 100volts and herts was bouncing a little. (This was on the control panel?)
Let the start go back to the run and volts went to zero and no more herts bouncing, (the bouncing is maybe an indication of low engine speed. Using the hertz adjust know, increase the engine speed 3-4 turns. You will hear the RPM ramp up, but no hertz will read on the meter until you have VAC. Reason being, the hertz meter,which reads DC voltage, but is driven by an AC signal, is not getting that AC signal, unless you hold up S2 in the start position. This tells me:

1. The initial excitation from S2 to the S9-C is working.
2. It also tells me that the exciter rotor is good.
3. Probable cause is the volt regulator card.
No indicators lights on at this time or anytime during the test except at the first time I hit the run. Low oil pressure light lit up until the engine was running for a couple of secs.
Then while the engine was running for a couple of mins I hit the start again and the volts showed 100 again and herts jumping the same way.
Next I increased the voltage increase and then hit the start and while the engine running. All of this was done without shutting off the engine. Volts increased to 105 volts so I believe that the increaser, (R1 rheostat) is working.
All this time also there was no AC ouput load on the Gen, (load terminals?).
Next I hit the closed breaker switch. No Volts and no herts jumping. The Breaker light came on. (This proves the CB2 works and that's good.)
During this operation I hit the start switch and got 105 volts and hertz jumping. Let off no volts and no herts and breaker light still on.
Kris

.

 

[KLChurch]

Opened the exciter box and found this. I think you could have roasted marshmallows on the transformer.
Plus looking at the orange dot I think this was a swap. Very dirty inside not like the other boxes I looked inside.
But the A11 looks good. Didn't want to see this. Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kris

 

[Guyfang]

NSN: 5950-00-600-0840
Part number: 72-2609
Part number: 369B106B-01

There are other part numbers and other info I will post as soon as I can look it up.

 

[Chainbreaker]

The good news is you definitely found a problem! The bad news is that it appears as if the Kraft Paper that is used to insulate and secure the transformer winding's may have deteriorated allowing the coated insulation on the transformer's windings to rub or protrude out enough to create a direct short to gnd.

The best news is that electrically equivalent transformers usually are not that hard to find and are fairly easy to install. If you have the parts TM look it up and see what the electrical and physical spec's are as well as NSN. With some hunting you should be able to find a replacement transformer. You can always post an ad in the SS Parts wanted section for this transformer. Someone here might have a parts machine or spare sitting on a shelf that they want to get rid of.

 

[Guyfang]

05833

BARNEY MACHINERY CO

1114 PARKVIEW DR

PITTSBURGH

PA

15205-1425

UNITED STATES

13483

PRECISION ELECTRONICS, INC.

1 DI TOMAS CT

COPIAGUE

NY

11726-1943

UNITED STATES

19899

ELECTRIC MACHINERY

DRESSER INDUSTRIES INC

800 CENTRAL AVE NE

MINNEAPOLIS

MN

55413-2400

UNITED STATES

FORMERLY ELECTRIC MACHINERY POWERS

SYSTEMS GROUP MCGRAW-EDISON CO

22558

COAST/ADVANCED CHIP MAGNETICS, INC.

DBA COAST/A C M

4225 SPENCER STREET

TORRANCE

CA

90503-2421

UNITED STATES

28535

NORLAKE MANUFACTURING COMPANY

DBA NORLAKE

39301 TAYLOR PKWY

NORTH RIDGEVILLE

OH

44039-6264

UNITED STATES

50508

MAGNETIC COMPONENTS INC

9520 AINSLIE ST

SCHILLER PARK

IL

60176-1191

UNITED STATES

53854

MAGNESPEC, INC.

1301 W MAHALO PL

COMPTON

CA

90220-5419

UNITED STATES

60283

AFCON PRODUCTS, INC.

35 SARGENT DR

BETHANY

CT

06524-3135

UNITED STATES

60451

CEGELEC AUTOMATION INC

DIV OF GENERAL ELECTRIC CO

PLC OF ENGLAND

WARNER ROBINS

GA

31088-7809

UNITED STATES

64196

VOLTAMPERE CORP

DEER PARK

NY

11729

UNITED STATES

FORMERLY LOCATED AT 19 JEFRYN BLVD W

DEER PARK NY 11729-5715

72149

ELECTRONIC TRANSFORMER CORP.

DIV ELECTRONIC TRANSFORMER

CORPORATION

460 TOTOWA AVE

PATERSON

NJ

07522-1513

UNITED STATES

73386

FREED TRANSFORMER COMPANY

460 TOTOWA AVE

PATERSON

NJ

07522-1513

UNITED STATES

80694

FOREST ELECTRIC COMPANY, THE

DBA FELCO

DIV A SUBSIDIARY OF KEMET

ELECTRONICS CORP

1301 ARMITAGE AVE STE B

MELROSE PARK

IL

60160-1423

UNITED STATES

95970

MTE CORP

MILWAUKEE TRANSFORMER CO

N83W13330 LEON RD

MENOMONEE FALLS

WI

53051-3305

UNITED STATES

FORMERLY IN MILWAUKEE WI

Suppliers addresses.

05833	F	A	S3915A	HQ0337	412-787-3737
13483	A	A	S3309A	HQ0337	6318424900	6318424904
19899	A	A	S2401A	HQ0339	612-378-8000			80221
22558	A	F	S0513A	HQ0339	3103708188	3103708388		22558
28535	A	A	S3605A	HQ0337	440-353-3200	440-353-3232
50508	A	A	S1403A	HQ0339	847-671-0633	847-671-9419
53854	A	A	S0513A	HQ0339	3106032262	3106032271
60283	A	A	S0701A	HQ0337	2033939301	2033939288
60451	F	A	S1103A	HQ0338
64196	F	A	S3309A	HQ0337
72149	A	A	S3101A	HQ0337	9739422222	9739429014		72149
73386	A	A	S3101A	HQ0337	9739422222	9739429014		72149
80694	A	A	S1403A	HQ0339	7086810180	7086810609
95970	A	A	S1403A	HQ0339	262-253-8200	262-253-8222		6Z539

Suppliers phone numbers.

part numbers Cage code

169117 64196
36B206G01 60451
36B206G01 19899
40-12487 50508
40235 22558
43673 73386
6191 13483
72-2609 60283
72-2609 05833
A1-32491 53854
A1-32491 95970
C10541 72149
FEC119 80694
PEI 6191 13483
ST-2778 28535

Left side part number for the transformer
Right side, (last 5 numerals) suppliers "name", Number

I could scream!!!!!!!!!! This darn page will not let me write or insert what I want, how I want!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[KLChurch]

Do you think we need to check something else in the exciter box while I try to find another transformer?

Thank Yall for all your help so far, I could not have done this without you. So far if I have not had bad luck I would not have luck at all.
Murphy is on my shoulder laughing.
This is a real Mission. But interesting and one **** of a learning curve.
Kris

 

[Guyfang]

I dont think so. I helped someone not long ago, and he told me where he got this transformer. But all those mails went into the trash, cause I had too many. I have a list of people I have compiled. Will start sending batch mails to ask if it was them. I could scream!

By all means put a want add in the SS forum. Maybe this guy will see it. have asked someone I know in the army. he is older then dirt. He might remember.

 

[Chainbreaker]

In this thread SS member "1800 Diesel" had a couple of MEP-004's that he said he might part out. The guy in this thread was looking for the same transformer listed under PN 72-2609.

You might try PM'ing him and see if he has one.

 

[Chainbreaker]

Found someone on Craigslist in Seattle that is parting out a MEP-004AAS. Not sure how good the parts might be but worth a shot to see if he might have an intact transformer plus any other parts you might want. Heck maybe just buy the whole Exciter Box if reasonable.

Edit: Just noticed this is a 400 Hz machine...not sure what parts to avoid. Perhaps Guy would know what parts to steer clear of.