MEP-802A and MEP-803A fuel consumption

[Ratch]

I have a never issued MEP-802A. Mine is a 2010 with 8hrs . The government paid $12,800 ea for these. I've been trying to come up with a fair price to sell it for.

I'd suggest asking $4000.
Low hours are nice to look at, but there are several reasons I more or less ignore them under 5000.
- meters are ridiculously easy to change or disable. You can put 1000 hours on it while keeping it still looking like new.
- meters stop working and don't always get noticed. Meter on my 002 stopped at least 48 hours ago that I know of.
- a homeowner buying a standby for his house will probably not run more than 100 loaded hours average per year.
- minimum normal service life is 10,000 hours, with many still going strong long after that.
- call me crazy...a 1995 with 2 hours on it is going to have rustier cylinders and bearings than a 2010 with 2500 hours.

I had a meter stop after a few hundred hours on one of my gas gennies, so i swapped it and marked it with "+xxx". Another was failed before i bought it and the seller gave me the old one with it, which I passed along to the guy I traded it to. Too easy to just not do those things.

It's probable the meter was never changed, lord knows the government buys things they'll never use just to fill up storage bunkers, but as a buyer, i wouldn't bank on it. The meters would have more integrity if they were harder to replace or bypass. The military just uses them as an indicator of maintenance intervals. A 2 hour meter will indicate 100 hours elapsed time for oil change as well as a 9000 hour meter.

 

[Doug Roberts]

I have sold on government contracts , and that price dictates high value /quality for the lowest price , otherwise you don't get the business , so you're double down wrong saying they aren't worth what they paid new for them. Surplus is wholesale to those who put up the money and bail the goods and bring it home. The value added demands a retail price. Those who want to pay wholesale prices for surplused goods need to take the risk , put up their money and go get it yourself.

 

[Glockfan]

I have sold on government contracts , and that price dictates high value /quality for the lowest price , otherwise you don't get the business , so you're double down wrong saying they aren't worth what they paid new for them. Surplus is wholesale to those who put up the money and bail the goods and bring it home. The value added demands a retail price. Those who want to pay wholesale prices for surplused goods need to take the risk , put up their money and go get it yourself.

I agree and would like to add this (shamelessly borrowed from battlegradeelectric.com):

Military generators are built to the highest military requirements. Unlike consumer products or even commercial products, military equipment is built to a specification, NOT a price point. They need to operate in any environment, at any temperature and for any length of time. When these generators are manufactured, meeting requirements is first and foremost with cost being an after thought. All consumer, commercial and industrial grade generator manufacturers focus their top priority on making money. They'll use 1% less copper, 1 gauge smaller wire, a zinc screw rather than a grade 8 bolt. All these cut corners, regardless of how small or large they may be, add up to profits for these companies. These generators are unlike anything available on the consumer market. Price is no object to the DoD. Everything is built to the highest quality standards. Grade 8 bolts everywhere, thicker and more copper windings than necessary, aluminum used throughout to prevent rust, redundant fuel pumps... the list goes on and on. Nothing can compare the the level of quality these generators are built to. A side by side comparison of military surplus generators and the best commercially available generators will leave military diesels ahead in every column... except price.

 

[Doug Roberts]

absolutely

 

[Ratch]

It makes sense, being that contracts are bid on, and I have no experience like that to form an opinion on. But a government contract is bid to make money, too, and the government blows money like it grows on trees. Military gear has a long history of being overpaid-for and not real well quality-checked, even when bid competitively. Meps are certainly overbuilt, but strip the mil-only specs, rate them at tested loads, and stick them on the commercial market, and I'd be curious to see what the market would support. If they go for $13k, then I guess the government is getting a fair deal.

 

[rustystud]

I agree and would like to add this (shamelessly borrowed from battlegradeelectric.com):

Military generators are built to the highest military requirements. Unlike consumer products or even commercial products, military equipment is built to a specification, NOT a price point. They need to operate in any environment, at any temperature and for any length of time. When these generators are manufactured, meeting requirements is first and foremost with cost being an after thought. All consumer, commercial and industrial grade generator manufacturers focus their top priority on making money. They'll use 1% less copper, 1 gauge smaller wire, a zinc screw rather than a grade 8 bolt. All these cut corners, regardless of how small or large they may be, add up to profits for these companies. These generators are unlike anything available on the consumer market. Price is no object to the DoD. Everything is built to the highest quality standards. Grade 8 bolts everywhere, thicker and more copper windings than necessary, aluminum used throughout to prevent rust, redundant fuel pumps... the list goes on and on. Nothing can compare the the level of quality these generators are built to. A side by side comparison of military surplus generators and the best commercially available generators will leave military diesels ahead in every column... except price.

If these machines where built to such high standards, then why all the failures of certain components ? Truth is they where built to handle a wide range of applications. The civilian market does not need 3 phase or the ability to change from 208Volts to 230 volts or use 400HZ . Yes they normally use real good components, normally. All the bolts are not grade 8, most are just grade 5. Yes they use a fair amount of aluminum, but all the sheet metal is steel and rusts like any other steel. They do not use stainless steel bolts or fasteners like a premium marine grade generator would. They are extremely heavy ! I don't particularly view this as a plus. It is nice that the blocks are made of cast iron, though the newer MEP's seem to be made from aluminum . All in all the MEP's are good units. $13,000.00 worth ? No. For that price I could make a unit with stainless steel panels, stainless steel fasteners, aluminum frame, high-end electronics, and diesel engines with good cast blocks and heads. Plus spin-on oil and fuel filters !

 

[Glockfan]

Mine has spin on filters and none of my sheet metal is steel. Perhaps you need an 802/803 to make a proper comparison and not compare the statement I quoted to a 30-year old set...

 

[Ratch]

Even though the housing is aluminum, it's not better than an industrial outdoor housing. It bends like tin foil and the exhaust flappers stick.

The crack and leak prone return hose would also be steel if it were money-no-object quality. The battery jumper would not rub through, the Gen head leads would not rub through, frequency transducers would last, gfi breakers would last, wires would be rated proper size from the factory (specifically an 802/803 problem), etc. The frikkin coolant fill would have $5 more copper to be brought out to horizontal.

Some areas are better, some are just good enough. I've compared meps to industrial commercial, and I would rather get a higher rated commercial for something critical (ie a 15kw compared to a 10kw mep). I've never seen a mep in a hospital or municipal building in an area with money.



I think this is a good debate that I've wanted to see for a long time, though I didn't want to come across as trashing meps. They're better than equally rated civilian machines for just a few more bucks as used, but price is usually why they appeal to civilians. It should probably have it's own thread, though.

 

[Doug Roberts]

The MEP-802As I have are new and never issued. The ground wire is still wrapped, the TM pamphlet is still wrapped in plastic , there's no wear anywhere on anything. I've never seen non issued gen sets before. They always have mega hours on em , or reworked by the military with the hour meter rolled back. I was told about em while picking up. They were located on the Gov Planet pickup site instead of the GL location. There were 9 of em I think , and I got 2 of them.

So back to the subject of value , new gen sets are sold to the military with warranty. There is transportation costs ect , all water over the bridge when surplused. There are costs associated with retailing merchandise , and the government does not want to get involved in it , they'd rather dump it , hence ... surplused goods. As far as gen sets go , some of these features are actually overkill in the civilian world , so for some people that doesn't equate in added value. Now that's just a few lil things , not all of em. We all have diverse backgrounds on here , well mine is in marketing. I have a BSBA and 30+ years experience. I'm not going to draw EOQs or scratch simplex algorithms in the sand here. Nor am I going to argue the price elasticity of military surplused gen sets , but really ... some of the 'opinions' I get on subjects like this are pretty juvenile

 

[Ratch]

Did you get them at auction? I didn't know gov planet was auctioning gensets.

I'd suggest that if you're committed to a $13,000 value, you market and sell them that way. With your experience and background, you should have some idea of how to sell them for that.

 

[R Racing]

I have a MEP-002a with 22 hrs on it since new . Its the nicest 1 I have seen. I have had it for sale for $2200.00 and people look at me like im crazy ? Things sell for what ever people are willing to pay or the market will bare . People value things differently.

 

[DieselAddict]

I can offer my opinion. My thoughts are based on more than 25 years working as an engineer and for the last 16 years as a facility engineer. Utilities have been my day job for a long time. That includes managing many MW of diesel power.

In the world of generators the depreciation curve is pretty steep. Much like when you drive a car off the lot when you bolt a generator to the pad you kiss 25% of its value goodbye. From there by the time the machine is 10yrs old its value is based more on its scrap value than its hour meter or functional state. The reason for that is pretty simple. A generator is for most of us a device that needs to work when other things are failing to work. That is why the generators at the plant where I worked are run twice a month. Readiness is important. These machines degrade to the point of failure even when they are not being used. The probability of failure increases over time. Entropy at work.

Even though your generators may have never been deployed they are not new. You are putting all the risk of failure on the buyer. Additionally they do not use a fuel source that will appeal to the average buyer of residential standby generators. They are not powerful enough to be of value to many commercial users or for rental portable power. The market you will be going after is a lot more narrow than you might think. I would recommend doing some research on the potential market that would express interest in these machines. I think you'll find you are currently amongst them right now and there will be fewer of them on craigslist. The downside of this group of potential clients is we know more about the market conditions of these machines than the general public. We will be a harder sell.

That is why I think to be successful in moving them the price will need to be in the $3k range ($3k-$4k). More than that and they won't be competitive when you stack them up against other 5kw generators.

I'm not bashing your attempt to sell them. I hope you do sell them. I don't think they will sell for more than $4k though. Thats strictly my opinion.

 

[Glockfan]

As nice as they are, I'm led to concur with DieselAddict with his $4k value assessment. If they were 10k units in that condition, they may be worth $6k but even then, you have to find that special buyer who appreciates these sets for what they are. Most common folks have no idea of why two pole heads are that require 3600 rpm are not as reliable or how much more durable low speed diesels driving four pole heads are... They just see inflated wattage on generators at box stores and say, "That big green thing is only a 5000 watt, well my Honda that I bought at Sams Club is 7000 watts and it was only $1000!" Of course, the only thing Honda about their generator is the GX390 13hp gas guzzler...

Perhaps one of the online auctions would be a better sales venue than here but if there is someone lurking on this site that wanted a new 802a, you may be able to sell one at a higher price. I personally don't think a new 802/803 is going to degrade from extended storage. There are lots of them that have never been uncrated at various depots across the country. We have some great methods of preparing items for long term storage. If a new unit was stored 8 years in the crate, it's still new (unless you are looking for an excuse to try to get the seller to come off his price.)

 

[DieselAddict]

I would say that if they have never been fueled and are still pickled from the elements they won't degrade. If they are exposed to air and the temperature/moisture swings from the environment we have here in NC the pin has been pulled on that grenade.

 

[Ratch]

I would say that if they have never been fueled and are still pickled from the elements they won't degrade. If they are exposed to air and the temperature/moisture swings from the environment we have here in NC the pin has been pulled on that grenade.

I agree with this. If the cylinders are fogged and everything still in assembly lube, it can last forever in storage, especially if the valves are closed and ports plugged. That's what I would expect from the factory, and the mil is not naive about the probability of much of this stuff sitting in storage long term. But it's all different once started. I've seen plenty of low miles automotive engines with rusty cylinders because they weren't put away to be stored.

 

[jimbo913]

I am leaning more towards an MEP-803A. My heat pump hot water heater runs on 600w but the compressor requires 19.6A to start (240v). Between that, the well pump, fridge and freezer I may be pushing my luck on anything less due to starting loads. Those are items that are difficult to control when they start and I would like to keep them all connected.

Keeping my eye out for 803A and also on 1800 rpm Diesel welder/generators as they seem to go for 3000-3500 around my area.

Glockfan - Did you ever load bank the 802A?

 

[DieselAddict]

Food for thought.

I tested the MEP831a and even though it is only 3kw it started my 3/4hp well pump without any problem at all. The base demand on the house at the time was about 600w and the running wattage for the pump itself was about 700w. The inrush on the pump is about 40 amps (calculated). I suspect if the inrush on the well pump wasn't a problem for the MEP831 then the inrush on the water heater HP wouldn't be a problem for a MEP802.

The MEP003a started a 3t heatpump while it was loaded at about 80% from the the dryer and water heater. That was intentional to see if I could push it over the edge and I struggled to turn on enough to get it above 100%. Based on that I could have easily gotten by with the 5kw machine and reduced the fuel consumption some.

 

[jimbo913]

I have been thinking about it plenty.

Figuring on a base load of about 2500w which covers heat, lights, water heater "running amps only", UV water treatment light, TV's, Sat boxes etc. and other junk the wife and kids have plugged in. But then I have fridge, freezer, 3/4 well pump that could in theory kick on at the same time or when running one of the following (microwave, toaster, hair dryer, or single range element). If it was middle of summer I would subtract about 1000w from the base figure and add in 2800w for RV AC unit as we would flee to it. Still thinking I could get by with an 802A?

i just dont want to spend 3-4k and "struggle" when with another 1-2k we dont have to worry. However, if it can handle the above then I would gladly pay less and save fuel.

 

[DieselAddict]

I do think with a little load management a 5kw would do it. If you would rather not sweat load management then the 803 is what you want. I can relate to it being a tough choice. It was the same for me and I went with the larger unit. With what I know now from running it on the house I may have chosen differently. I'm in no way unhappy with the 10kw. It is more overkill than I was expecting.

With the varying load of my house the 003 burns on average 0.6gph. That is averaged over about 16 running hours between May and now. I run it connected to the house 2-3 hrs a month. I expected it to burn a little more than that so I was pleasantly surprised by the fuel consumption.

 

[10Lugger]

This has been an interesting thread. It is odd how things work in planning for life's hick-cups. Our power regularly went out, but since we bought an 802 a year ago, we have not needed the MEP once. We bought in, and lucked out on our 802 through GL for $850 then bought an other with a reset with no instrument panel but new engine and gen for $500 just in case we needed any parts. If the power would to go out, we are seasoned for the inconvenience it may bring even long term, seems money would be better spent on auxiliary tank and fuel. Just my take.