MEP-803A connecting to my house with an ATS.

[ddipert]

I'm slightly confused on how I should proceed with connecting my MEP-803a to my house. I've been researching ATS's which is have all kinds of options and price points. Looked at the Green mountain generators (GMG) auto start and transfer switch control boards.

What I would like to accomplish is to have the 803a run as my whole house generator. Auto starting and switching is a must (I travel a fair amount and having my wife switch things over just isn't going to work). I could need some auto shedding (or time delayed start - not starting both HVAC units at the same time should work in my case) capability, both AC unit and hot water heater on a one time should put me over the max for the unit. Would also like have the unit auto test monthly.

Unless I don't understand I would need the GMG autostart board which will make the mep803a a2 wire start generator and and and ATS.

What ATS are people using which would meet my needs to auto shedding/time delayed start and auto test function?

 

[zanther]

Not much help here, but I just worked with a generator installation company to recently replace my old breaker system that had a Main and a generator Subpanel. I was trying to get an ATS capable main breaker panel but ran into legal issues. They couldn't legally install a ATS without load shedding because of over amperage draw like you mentioned with AC's and WH. The cost of an ATS with some sort of load shedding/delayed start system quickly became unfeasible for my budget.

I ended up with a manual transfer whole house switch and created a video for my wife on how to start/enable/stop the generator. I uploaded that video into OneDrive so she can watch it on her phone if needed. on my ToDo list is to write down the same instructions and color code my breaker labels to make it easier for her to remember which breakers to turn off etc.


I ended up a Siemens 42 spot breaker panel with Manual interlock.

 

[DieselAddict]

+1 with what zanther said. You can't do an auto transfer to generator power if the generator isn't rated for the connected load. You'll need auto load sheading or you'll be limited to a manual transfer switch.

 

[ddipert]

So what ATS with load shedding is are people using?

DieselAddict we are almost neighbors.

 

[DieselAddict]

I'm doing everything manual. In 2018 my goal is to have some solar with battery backup to run the fridge and lights.

Yep, Mebane is just a couple of exits down the road.

 

[csheath]

I'm slightly confused on how I should proceed with connecting my MEP-803a to my house. I've been researching ATS's which is have all kinds of options and price points. Looked at the Green mountain generators (GMG) auto start and transfer switch control boards.

What I would like to accomplish is to have the 803a run as my whole house generator. Auto starting and switching is a must (I travel a fair amount and having my wife switch things over just isn't going to work). I could need some auto shedding (or time delayed start - not starting both HVAC units at the same time should work in my case) capability, both AC unit and hot water heater on a one time should put me over the max for the unit. Would also like have the unit auto test monthly.

Unless I don't understand I would need the GMG autostart board which will make the mep803a a2 wire start generator and and and ATS.

What ATS are people using which would meet my needs to auto shedding/time delayed start and auto test function?

I considered this for like uh 2 minutes. Didn't take long to realize the 803 is not a good candidate and to make it work would be cost prohibited if even possible.

If you absolutely HAVE to have these features you might as well finance a whole house propane unit.

 

[keen]

I considered this for like uh 2 minutes. Didn't take long to realize the 803 is not a good candidate and to make it work would be cost prohibited if even possible.

Why?

The load shedding is a function of the transfer switch and it's associated hardware. So is the delayed load start and exercise functions. Sure it means spending money on a better class of transfer switch (ie, not whole house generac that has half of the logic in the genset).


To be fair, I haven't found an ATS that does what -I- want in my budget yet. The Kohler RDT looks like it will work fine with 2 wire start, and will do load shedding with an extra module, but per their docs only with their gens. We probably have to increase the price point a bit to find something more generic. I suspect ASCO offers something, but I'm only starting my research.

In my case, load shedding would only be to meet code - with the exception of my air compressor(which will self-trigger it's breaker when it pulls the voltage down...) and other intermittent use shop tools I can run 100% of my house on an 803 without an issue. Though I haven't tried the drier - but that, too, will shed it's own load - the ATS isn't power outage free (that is to say, we're not looking at online transfer), and the dryer won't restart on power outage.


I'd like to see more discussion of actual ATS transfer switches in use, instead of poo-pooing on the idea. Both those that meet current NEC code requirements for load shedding, as well as installs prior to that code requirement change that don't use load shedding.

Sure - we might have to spend about as much as we spent on the generator, but that still gives us a primary power generator about the same as a standby rated generator and with 1/2 to 1/4 the fuel consumption (and 1/2 the fuel price per gallon).

 

[DieselAddict]

Why?

It comes down to cost. You can do an interlock or (better yet) a manual transfer switch and be done for a few hundred bucks in hardware.

To go with an ATS the hardware cost goes up quite a bit. Its totally doable. Just more expensive. I can't speak for everyone here but for me I prefer to not spend that much $$ for a feature that I have no problem doing manually.

I don't think anyone here is poo-pooing the idea. Its a great idea if you are willing to fund it. I'll be interested in seeing what you come up with.

 

[Firebrand]

I'm in the same boat with my -803A as well. I might need to upgrade the wife and kids with Generator 2.0 so they can deal with it when I'm not around the manage the machine and loads. Color coding the breakers is great but using my P-Touch machine to label each one correctly will make this work smoother over the long haul.

 

[Daybreak]

Howdy,

ATS is just that, automatic transfer switch. 200 amp service= 200 amp ATS. It's not cheap. The legal proper call is for a generator with ??kw to power everything you have.

A generator sub panel - a break out panel with items that add up to your generators capacity.

Load-shedding - if you really research this, you might as well go by yourself a brand new 30kw generator and ATS. You are really adding on the $$$$

permits - codes - nec mandates

The best cheapest way is going to be with a manual interlock. Once that is in place, you decide what you want on and run.

Yes, there are a few members which have been playing around with the auto start boards. The end result problem is you will be limited to a few breakers to what the unit will run. You will not have your entire panel to switch to.

You can do what you want and think. The comments come from experience and knowledge of wanting to do a lot of stuff, only to realize it is not worth it.

I have 400 amp service. You think 200 amp switches are expensive, look at the 400 amp stuff. I was able to talk to my utility which just happen to have a special meter collar switch. It really is exactly what I wanted. I am able to use anything I want, up to the generator kw limit I have connected.

thread Transfer Switch Installation Costs - Your Opinion

 

[Chainbreaker]

I have interlocks on house as well as shop/barn via two service entrances and love their simplicity and reliability. I purchased & installed the one at shop/barn myself and it only cost me ~$100. I think there is something to be said for "hands on" starting of a genset. To me its like a pilot doing a pre-flight inspection of aircraft before jumping in, starting up and taxing off...is genset oil level ok, have any hoses or wires been chewed on by rodents, any fuel or oil leaks/drips, are all settings/controls properly configured, fuel level ok, drain off tank petcock to check for water, etc. Being there when it starts just gives me pleasure & comfort listening to the diesel knowing it is running well and seeing that the exhaust is clear after warm-up.

Also, having all breakers turned off in house breaker box and then turning on one-by-one in the order I want (which may vary due to season and time of day) allows me to factor in start-up surges such as freezer, well pump, etc. I have color coded all the necessary breakers with stick on green dots and have a 1 pg detailed written procedure for wife (nickname is Calamity) of how to do everything necessary if I'm away. If no one is home at the time I really would not want the airplane to taxi off without me, ahhh I mean genset start-up without me, as I'm usually no more than an hour or so away so it can wait till I get there.

I do realize everyone's situations are unique and there are valid reasons for auto-start w/ATS configurations needed...medical, security, elderly, etc. Anyway, I just thought I would share my positive interlock experience as a perspective.

 

[DieselAddict]

Take a look at your breaker panel and see if you can get "shunt trip" breakers for it. They will be the key to auto load shedding in your main panel.

 

[Chainbreaker]

Also, if one is away from home and no one is there how do you know when power is out at home? Especially good to know if you don't have ATS w/auto-start setup!

The answer I came up with was using a computer UPS that has PC software that emails and texts me various alerts that I can configure. I am using a CyberPower's "CP1500PFCLCD" with software package. I set it up to wait 5 minutes after utility power failure before it initiates PC shutdown (it can wake PC from sleep and close any open PC files/apps) and then I configured to send out text msg & emails to us notifying of a power failure occurance. I also set it up to notify when power is restored (PC has to be set to auto-boot restart on power restore). Very handy when your not onsite! As an added bonus, it will monitor several conditions including low or high mains voltage and set an alarm. That came in VERY useful when one of my generators had a malfunction and voltage went high. I was home and my beeping UPS notified me something was amiss and I was able to quickly determine the high voltage alarm malfunction via UPS LCD and quickly shut down genset and roll in my spare genset.

Here's a handy link of UPS unit: https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups/pfc-sinewave/

This is the free software (PowerPanel Business Edition) they offer that I used for sending out alerts: https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/software/

BTW, I found a super "Black Friday" holiday deal via Newegg when I bought mine a few years back. Of course, there are other brands that will do the job, however I can attest that my CyberPower UPS & software has been flawless since I bought it about 4+ years ago.

Anway, just passing this along as it ties to home automation as it relates to power outages and ATS/Auto-Start considerations.

 

[rhurey]

Why?

To be fair, I haven't found an ATS that does what -I- want in my budget yet. The Kohler RDT looks like it will work fine with 2 wire start, and will do load shedding with an extra module, but per their docs only with their gens. We probably have to increase the price point a bit to find something more generic. I suspect ASCO offers something, but I'm only starting my research.

Military generators are likely such a niche market, you're gonna need to increase your budget. A guy at work just had a 22K backup installed. NG powered. It was cheaper to go from a 11K to a 22K generator total out of pocket than to get auto-load shedding, and that's what his contractor pushed. I have no reason to suspect most contractors don't push the same decision. So the entire market for load shedding transfer is likely small because pushing a larger generator is easier for the installer.

Then throw in auto-transfer with a 4th party control module... Smaller market still. And hence more expensive.

 

[TheAlfredo]

But your cost to run the generator goes up. Everyone has different needs and different budgets

 

[keen]

I'm continuing my research.


First: No doubt we're a bit of a niche market. Except that with the inovahightech.com remote starter board ( https://inovahightech.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=20 ), we can ignore the specifics pretend it's any other generic two wire start diesel generator.

Now - diesel and residential don't go well together in the generator marketplace. Switching from LP/NG air cooled generators up to watercooled diesels puts bare minimum starting price up to closer to $10,000. And that only gets you about the same power we get out an 803a. So, there's not a lot of transfer switches targeting us. They're targeting the propane/NG aircooleds, and those manufacturers are cost-cutting (understandably) hard - and building features that the commercial (propane/ng/diesel) market don't generally use to meet the 2008 NEC rules.

At least in my part of the south in 2017 - delivered propane is between $4 and $5 gallon, and I can't self-deliver large enough qualities (at closer to $2.71/g if I can find it that cheap) to be useful (that means lots of 100lb (23-28g) tanks to get a weeks worth of fuel). My 16kw propane consumed 267 gallons a week at half load (420g at full!), compared to the 803a's 163g/w at full load. Additionally, access to propane is seriously limited when it's needed most - after a storm. At at 2+x the fuel consumption and ~1.5x the fuel price, that gets expensive fast.

To put those numbers to dollars - for irma, a week on diesel would have cost me $438 (fuel prices froze at $2.69g for a few days before, and weeks after). A week on propane on the 16kw at the last delivered price - $4.02/g - would have been $1073. I can't speak to NG since it's not an option for me.


So that boils down to my personal motivation - When I've needed a generator in the last 15 years, minimum runtimes have been 8-10 hours, typical runtimes are 5-15 days. The first time, in 2004, we ran on generator for around 45 days (and only managed to find one because family in a tiny out of the way town found one at the local Ace. The only one). Those kinds of outages, as folks are rediscovering once again with roasted gensets, are not friendly to standby residential generators.


The ATS part of that motivation - the power might go out immediately once a storm kicks up, but typically it's about 6-10 hours in. While we could kick the gen on and switch over in the calm before the storm, the storms tend to be extremely unpredictable in their approach. We could kick the gen on, only to be 20+ hours waiting. And you can't count on waiting for the weather to get worse as a good starting point - we get a lot of stormy weather - and a lot of clear skies - pushed ahead of a storm. But what this boils down to: Once the power goes out, YOU DO NOT GO OUTSIDE. For a long time. (in some past storms of legend before my time, that span has been days and days and days - the storms in my personal experience are more like 8-16 hours before it isn't really safe but there are gaps where you think you can get away with it and do anyway).

So, manual startup and manual transfer, while excellent options, are not prefered. Not to mention that there's no coverage for those outages that happen without fore-warning or while you're out of town. (and a normally air conditioned house in florida without air conditioning for a week is a mold remediation waiting to happen).

I can't speak for the original poster - but these are the reasons I'm willing to invest what might approach the same cost as the genset (or more) into switching gear (factoring in my time, an electricians time, and the actual hardware itself). At the very least I'm willing to invest the time into discovering if it's an option. I'd -STILL- be thousands of dollars ahead of an entry level commercial diesel install. And I can disconnect it and haul it to family or friends as needed, to boot.

 

[rhurey]

Naïvely, I'd note if going outside is the risk, remote start, manual transfer is an intermediate option...

 

[Daybreak]

Howdy,
Your best bet would to use something like a generator break-out box and use a ATS to power just those items. There is no way any inspection, permit, whatever codes, would allow a whole house ATS to a 10kw generator.

You have 200 amp service?

 

[keen]

So next:

Let decompose what we think of as a complex and expensive system: The Automatic Transfer Switch

The ATS isn't just a single piece. Pretty much nothing in ATS market is.

They are composed of many parts that work together to achieve a few goals - many of these are optional pieces:

- The actual power-actuated connect/disconnect of utility power and generator (or other local source power) - required

- Sensing utility power to determine problematic power situations (not use pure outages - low voltage, down phases, out of phase power, freq, etc) - required

- Triggering of the startup of a generator prior to switchover - required

- triggering of the disconnect/connect of utility/generator - required

- Sensing generator power to determine acceptable power output (primarily voltage/freq/phase match) - optional

- Testing and exercising of the generator and possibly load transfer to ensure (or at least increase the probability) that the system works when needed - optional

- load monitoring to avoid generator overload conditions (this can be via load monitors in the generator, CTs attached to the wiring, or simple voltage/freq monitoring) - optional

- load shedding triggers to disconnect low-priority loads (completely, or when load monitoring requests it)


These primary functions seem to span the residential and commercial markets the same. There tends to be less load monitoring/shedding in the commercial hardware, presumably because there's an expectation to size more appropriately to peak loads. The load monitoring/shedding in that market tends to be more focused on adding/removing additional power sources instead of removing loads.


The 4 required functions are shared by pretty much every ATS out there, understandably. There's at minimum a motor driven switch, which is triggered by a controller or relays that are fired by the utility sensing monitor. That's about where the consistency ends - even in that, the utility sense hardware might be in the generator, or in the ATS controller board, or in a standalone component of the ATS system.

And that's the state of the rest of the features - they might be in the ATS, might be standalone, might be in the generator, or might be integrated into other components in the system.


Next time I'll get into some solutions.

ps: the reason I said "think of as expensive" is because I can get a motor powered switch with utility sensor that will do 200 amps for around $100. It won't do anything more than switch contacts when power is lost, but that's pretty much the minimum requirement for automatic transfer...

 

[keen]

Naïvely, I'd note if going outside is the risk, remote start, manual transfer is an intermediate option...

Not really (for me) - main panel is outside, that feeds 5 subpanels - kitchen, primary house, well, small shop, large shop. and directly feeds the kitchen AC and the septic pump.

In florida we aren't blessed with the ability to have basements for easy extra square footage - there is no where in a 1500sqft house to safely nor comfortably place an MTS - not to mention it would involve adding a service entrance disconnect (required with an external MTS/ATS, too, but it can be in the panel) running the main feeder to that panel then back outside, and running the gen service (and remote start controls) inside.