MEP-804B - New to me, I have a few questions

[410Customs]

allright
You guys are totally awesome, this site is awesome
THANK YOU FOR THE INFO!
Information is power, will be able to sleep at night

I will be looking at the TM's to see how the ac motor comes out of this generator

If I was to remove the 3 phase motor and replace it with a single phase motor
That brings up two more questions:
What ac motor would go back in/bolt up to provide single phase
and
would the controls be happy

The other option would be to wire/convert the house to 3 phase

For now we will be putting this baby on its new stand and wiring it up for 208V service to the house....using 2/3 of its capacity.
once the sun is out this summer I can then mess with it.
In the winter we run the gen set ALOT

in the Summer we barely need it, if at all
This far North = not much sun this time of year, but in the summer the sun is up until 10:30 pm

I am a moderator over at explorerforum.com I have been helping people with their Ford's for 20+ years now. It is awesome to get some help from those who know and I thank you guys again for going the extra mile to help me with this.

Now to find the proper TM's, I have downloaded a few things for this genset already

" I love three phase, so am not a "Naysayer". I would wire my place for three phase and be done with it. "

I also need to learn more about my outback inverters, see how in the hell would I wire this house to 3 phase???

 

[DieselAddict]

You may can reach out to a company such as this to see if they make a generator head that will fit the engine.

Product page

centralgagenerator.com

I can't image this is going to be easy or less expensive than selling/trading the MEP804 for a more suitable machine.

 

[410Customs]

I understand what you are saying
If I get into these things we will likely end up with 3-4 of them if you catch my drift
So my next purchase may very well be a 803
I tend to overthink things and we pretty much modify everything we drag home in one way or another, why should this be any different!!

Location makes it difficult to move equipment like this in and out, this one is already here! The struggle is real
I am intrigued by having 3 phase here for sure

 

[DieselAddict]

Adding another phase in the mix isn't a big deal. You can look at your panel and see if you have any loads that it makes sense to split off into another panel for your third phase.

For the house I'm going to build soon it will have AC and DC power distribution. Anything that can run directly from battery power will get it and I'll use AC power only where its needed. For example all the lighting in the house will be DC.

The real struggle you'll begin to recoginze is when to stop. Speaking as someone with no less than 6 generators out in the yard right now, I know.

 

[410Customs]

lets see we have 5 gen sets here right now
The plan is to sell a few of the crappy ones once we get going with the diesels
We have spent too much $$$ on propane during winter months and with mud season lasting until may it can be difficult to get a propane refill on time

I am really looking forward to having diesel and using tax free off road diesel for our power generation

The last few days I have been working to get the old Kohler propane gen set out of the way, move the 3700# concrete block it sits on and replace it with a nice 8x10 wood platform.... at that time we will then be unloading the 804b from my truck onto the new platform, hopefully this weekend.
Another nice feature is the aux fuel supply and internal pump! Instead of messing with a transfer tank I can simply get a trailer with a fuel tank, drag it to the station, fill with off road, haul it back and hook up the supply line. tooo easy!! (and cheaper then transfer tanks)

I have alot to learn about my options here, converting the genset to single phase or adding a 3rd phase to the house but I am on it!!
Thanks to you guys my options are clear!! and I have direction........

Oh also looking at transformers...... that is a viable option but the details are new to me, so I'm here learning
I think I would be looking for a transformer that can take the 3 phase 416V and drop it down to single phase 240V?

 

[Scoobyshep]

lets see we have 5 gen sets here right now
The plan is to sell a few of the crappy ones once we get going with the diesels
We have spent too much $$$ on propane during winter months and with mud season lasting until may it can be difficult to get a propane refill on time

I am really looking forward to having diesel and using tax free off road diesel for our power generation

The last few days I have been working to get the old Kohler propane gen set out of the way, move the 3700# concrete block it sits on and replace it with a nice 8x10 wood platform.... at that time we will then be unloading the 804b from my truck onto the new platform, hopefully this weekend.
Another nice feature is the aux fuel supply and internal pump! Instead of messing with a transfer tank I can simply get a trailer with a fuel tank, drag it to the station, fill with off road, haul it back and hook up the supply line. tooo easy!! (and cheaper then transfer tanks)

I have alot to learn about my options here, converting the genset to single phase or adding a 3rd phase to the house but I am on it!!
Thanks to you guys my options are clear!! and I have direction........

Oh also looking at transformers...... that is a viable option but the details are new to me, so I'm here learning
I think I would be looking for a transformer that can take the 3 phase 416V and drop it down to single phase 240V?

Ideally youd want a transformer that has adjustable input taps (for voltage correction) and somethint you can retap the secondary on (this way you could do a double delta or low zigzag)

 

[NATCAD]

What are the specifications on your solar / charger system?
I see what looks like a outback 60 amp and an outback 80 amp solar charge controller.
What are the details on the ac input to charge the batteries? The photo you posted is not that clear.
Do you have manuals or specifications on the system?
edit
I think you have this: https://www.outbackpower.com/products/inverter-chargers/obx-extreme-series


The Extreme Series Inverter/Charger features intelligent battery charging and an integrated AC transfer relay with automatic neutral-ground switching for mobile applications. A “mount anywhere” design and silent operation, along with low-distortion pure sine wave power output, make them ideal for mobile electrical needs, and their ample surge capability can start multiple heavy loads simultaneously. Integrated building block architecture allows expanding a system from 2 to 36 kW, and user-defined settings allow systems operation at 120 VAC, 120/240 VAC or 120Y208 VAC three-phase by stacking multiple Extreme inverter/chargers together.

OP, I think you should open the manual for your inverter and read the section on 3 phase input.

You have a 3 phase generator. If the engine is good, and it produces good v and a, my choice all day long would be to get another charger/inverter.

It will make your system more robust, and allow you more in and out.

You will have some $ for another inverter/charger, and you will have a wee bit of wiring to bring your 3 phase in, but that is what teck cable is for, right?

Those darn canadians and their innovations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teck_cable (they call it low voltage, I guess that is relative)

 

[410Customs]

Thank you!
I have been working on the system for the last couple of weeks troubleshooting and learning more about it
I am intrigued about running 3 phase using an additional Outback inverter

I will post up the schematics of our system and how it is wired, I have a nice chart showing each component and the wiring details.

I believe we have a bad inverter that may have been the cause of our problems since we moved in back in 2017
However there is some more testing to be done
This would explain why our Kohler propane genset has been having ac frequency issues any why our battery performance / system performance has been so poor. I now have one of the inverters turned off so we are only running on one leg of the 240V kohler and it works better then it did with both inverters powered up, even though the kohler propane genset is running on an unbalanced load, it is running without shut down.

I will explain more later
The diesel genset is still in the back of my truck (poor leaf springs) with spring here the road is turned to moosh (mud) and in order to place the new genset in its new home I need to build a small deck that will serve as a generator stand and floor for the new generator shack.
Will we sell the 804B and get a 803 single phase? Will we convert the house to 3 phase? Or run a transformer so the genset is happy with a 3 phase load and the house is happy with 240V??
......... time will tell! The transformer seems like a very viable option. The outback inverters are $1700+ and right now it looks like I would need two of them (we have one bad one) in order to go 3 phase............ still in the research phases of this decision. I wish I could just convert the 804 to single phase, would be so much easier.

Thanks for the advice, one of the first things I did was look at the outback manuals and see how they are used to give a 3 phase load to the genset, what I dont quite understand yet is the advantage of having 2 or 3 48Vconverters hooked up when it comes to charging the battery bank.....? each one is its own 48V charger.........right now with only one Outback inverter powered up we are getting a better charge on the battery bank then we have in over a year!!

 

[mciikurzroot]

Lots offerd here, WHY NOT go back in and convert the house/cabin panel to a 3 phase panel rebalance the loading and away you go , very inexpensive same pysical typically and it sounds like your CABIN atmosphere will make accessing the electrical panel very easy .. best of luck mac/mc

 

[NATCAD]

410 customs.
Having three inverters is about having three input ac voltages. I haven't read the manual. You can post a link , and also the relevant section on input voltages and 3 phase.

I would recommend you disconnect your kohler from house and measure ac put at the generator.

Have you called outback yet about your 'problems' with the house and inverter?

So you may need three working outback inverter chargers, or two if kohler is fine, and it is just your inverter.

What was the problem you observed with the troublesome inverter charger running?

Who did the work on the whole system - do you have their contact info still?

 

[NATCAD]

lets get this fixed buddy

 

[410Customs]

You guys are great!! Seriously

Okay here we are a couple of weeks later and FINALLY we have some results and I have some answers

The outback equipment is fine, the inverters are working well, charge controllers are good, and all wiring has been thoroughly checked.

------------------------> FOUND a dead short inside the wall <--------------------------------------
MICE
Yes that is right Mice had chewed up the insulation on one of the 240V inputs from the generator(s)
It was shorting against the metal box it was mounted in

There was ONE place inside the wall where the wire was NOT inside conduit
We took the entire wall apart to expose all of the wiring.

After living here for 3 years+ I now finally understand the system I have, the wiring, where it goes and why.
My neighbor (we have two neighbors back here full time/year around), well my neighbor and best friend his dad just happens to live off grid, has a similar outback system and he was an electrician for 40+ years. So he came down yesterday and went over the system and settings with me. SO many questions I had were answered it is like a huge weight has been lifted.
I am responsible for the power here, there are 6 of us who live on this homestead and they are all depending on me to sort this out.
I think we have a good grip on it now!

Many of the settings in the outback system were slightly off, some of the charging voltages mostly for the inverters, some of the settings in the PV charge controllers also

So some bonehead made a few mistakes here over the years, the majority of this system was built in 2005
Big mistake: not putting one wire run in conduit
Second mistake: a 30 amp toggle switch to swap between main generator and backup generator, this switch was 18" upstream of our dead short. This should be a true transfer switch (blade style)
The rest of it is just newbie setup errors, me messing with the settings, trying to get it setup for the Lithium battery upgrade, trying to understand how it all works together.

We have two stacked inverters, they are 48V battery chargers, and 3600W inverters. Each one is 120V and is fed by one leg of the 240V output from the genset. There is a isolation transformer inside the outback AC distribution box that balances the loads on the house side of things (Outback 240x)
We have two MX60 charge controllers, one for each solar array.
Our solar panels are BP 190W and they are from 2005, one or two panels maybe getting weak/dead, I am still working on that.

Anyways with the dead short on the AC IN side of things fixed and the inverters charge settings now set properly...we are back up and running! Yesterday I was able to get a full charge on the batteries.

The bad news:
1) I only have 200 amp hours, the way our Battle Born batteries are setup, 2 banks of 48V (8 total bats) we only have 200 amp hours. We need more batteries (I knew we needed more batteries, but I also thought I had 800 amp hours = whoops!)

2) Kohler 14,000 KW LPG genset is toast, the V twin engine for sure has a big internal issue. I suspect bad exhaust valves, will tear into that later

3) One or two dead solar panels

4) Mice had build a high rise apartment complex inside the wall next to the power system

5) Right now we are reliant on the sun and a Generac 15000 portable gasoline genset to recharge the batteries. (5-10 gallons of gasoline to fully charge the battery bank when there is no/little sun) remember one of our PV arrays is weak and not charging very much.

6) The outback inverters we have are obsolete, they are not compatible with the newer Outback inverters, so if one goes bad it will require repair or I will have to replace both of them.


The good news:
1) I do not need to buy another Outback inverter(s) ($1700+ each)
2) We have power!!

Today I plan to pull my truck around (with the 804B in the bed) and plug the diesel genset into the house, using just 208V and see how it does!!
Just for testing. I do NOT want to keep buying gasoline for the Generac

In the market for:
1) 3 phase to split phase transformer (to make 804b happy and work with our system) This will step down the 3 phase output from the genset and feed the 240V outback inverters.

2) 8 more battle born batteries

3) New solar panels, 16ea, 350 watts or so.......still designing this/wiring, etc

Since the 804b cannot easily be converted to single phase, the way I see it I have 3 options:

1) sell the 804b and get an 803. I like this idea, getting the correct generator for our system would be a smart way to go. However getting the 804B out of here would require me to sell it, move it (our road is now in spring thaw, no way am I driving a big truck back here for another month or so = mud) I would have to find a buyer and then buy the correct unit and get it here, this could take months where we live

2) Upgrade the house to 3 phase power. We do not have any equipment right now that runs on 3 phase, we really do not need 3 phase. I would have to scrap my two current inverters and buy 3 new ones ($1700+ each), pull new wire, etc etc. This is also a good option, but it is just not in the cards right now. I need that $$$ for solar panels and batteries

3) Use a step down transformer (I think its called a step down when you use it this way) to convert from the 3 phase generator output to the 240V single phase system we have. Apparently I can get a transformer like this for about $8-900? Still working on this too

Option 3 seems the most viable for us now.

Here are the pics, thanks for sticking with me this long, as I said you guys are AWESOME, I seriously cannot thank you enough!!!!


Found dead short, this is the plug on the side of the house where the backup genset plugs into the 240V AC IN

Mice!! This was shorting out on the metal box it was mounted in

evidence of mouse house

mouse high rise

The system exposed, mouse house cleaned up, toggle switch bypassed, no more red light events, no more errors, filters/fans cleaned and we are up and running!! Now the cats have direct access to any mice that come in. Also found the hole where the mice were coming in, will fix it ASAP.

I am off to "the depot" to get more gasoline and some 240V wire so I can build a temporary cable, pull the 804b around and test it out!!
After testing we will be building a CMU pad to hold the 804b, it must be elevated 24" off the ground since we are in a flood plane.
Plan is to build a small pad/shed to keep the 804b in, the backup genset, and the new step down transformer

If anyone has any advice about what transformer I need, please help!! I have been researching this and when I found one online that seemed to suit my needs it was $32,000!!!!!!!!!!


WOOOOO HOOOOO!!!! more later

 

[410Customs]

NATCAD SAID:

410 customs.
Having three inverters is about having three input ac voltages. I haven't read the manual. You can post a link , and also the relevant section on input voltages and 3 phase.
I understand this now! I am intrigued, in the distant future we may very well use all 3 phases (3 legs)
I would like to know if its possible to use this genset to power 3 outback inverters, but in separate locations hooked up to separate battery banks? The thinking here is we could use one 120V inverter in 3 different buildings??

I would recommend you disconnect your kohler from house and measure ac put at the generator.
DONE. Kohler is backfiring through intake and making a nasty metal internal sound. LPG flow has been tested, V twin tuned up, this problem has gotten worse over time. The genset has 2700 hours on it and I believe the V twin is toast. It cannot maintain AC frequency, backfires terribly, and shuts down after just minutes of running. The genset has internal meters and I can watch the voltages/frequency. I believe it needs an engine rebuild, from my research it is very likely exhaust valves. I will be doing a compression test next, then yank the V twin for repair

Have you called outback yet about your 'problems' with the house and inverter?
NO I have not. I have researched it online myself, contacted local experts, contacted people who lived here and built this system, etc. I don't need outback just yet! I have you guys! HAHAHA and I have backwoods solar in town (they sold this equipment back in 05) they have been very helpful. I also have my dad who is the worlds foremost elevator consultant and has been schooling me on transformers and power, AC DC, voltages, wire sizes, flow etc. Stuff I have always been around, but now I have a real world need..... The outback forums are an awesome source of info!!

So you may need three working outback inverter chargers, or two if kohler is fine, and it is just your inverter.
Our 3648 inverters are both fine and working perfectly THANK GOODNESS! I had a red light "event" for months now, intermittent, difficult to troubleshoot.

What was the problem you observed with the troublesome inverter charger running?
red light even followed by error codes, 3 diff error codes, AC output low, AC backfeed and one other I cannot remember. The wild thing was the red light even would move from one inverter to the other!! This helped me determine that the inverter was actually working properly

Who did the work on the whole system - do you have their contact info still?
Yes and no. I am good friends with the guy who sold us this place, my neighbor has been here since day one and was a part of this build, however he does not do electrical stuff that much, his dad does. I have been told the guy who actually wired it all up is still around and we can get his info if needed. This place started as a small camping cabin, then was added onto twice, then in 2004 they built the main house and shop, in 05 the outback system / solar was installed.

Thank you!!

 

[Guyfang]

You also need to get serious about mice control.

 

[loosegravel]

Just a little extra personal experience with your specific generator. I've been using a MEP-804B as a whole house back-up power supply since September 2020. I live in Enumclaw, Washington and I lose power a few different times a year. The "unbalanced load" issue that has been discussed here doesn't seem to be a problem. Granted, I'm not using this thing as a main power source all of the time. But I have ran my whole house for (4) strait days while using a 4 ton heat pump, a 50 gallon water heater, electric dryer, electric range, multiple TV's and all of the lights that I want. I'm using a manual 50 amp breaker on my main panel with an interlock. So I need to use some common sense and do some load management. I.E...I don't run the dryer, the range, the water heater and the heat pump at the same time. I simply do not see, smell, feel or taste a problem with the so called "unbalanced load" issue. This generator just sits there and runs as if it doesn't care. The fuel rating for the MEP-803A is .97 gallons per hour at full load, while the fuel rating for the MEP-804B is 1.2 gallons per hour at full load. This doesn't appear to be a significant difference to me. At least not worth going through all of the trouble of trying to use all three of the legs of power on this unit at the same time. I would venture to say that these marvelous generator heads are in fact brushless. So what harm could possibly be caused by not using all three of the power at the same time legs really? Just my personal experience. (what little there is!) And I too thank everyone who contributes their personal experience and great knowledge on this wonderful forum. Thank you all!

 

[Guyfang]

Been saying this from day one in the forum. There is sometimes a large difference between theory and practice.

So what harm could possibly be caused by not using all three of the power at the same time legs really? Just my personal experience.

 

[410Customs]

One last questions

So the 12 bolt voltage panel is set to 208/120 and I understand if I loosen all the bolts and raise it up so the arrow touches it will make 240/416

Should I be set to 240V?
Not 208?



I will only be using two of the three legs as follows:

The outback inverters are expecting to see 240V (120 V L1 to top inverter and 120V L2 to bottom inverter)
the kohler always made 118-120 per leg the generac more like 109-110 per leg so they do not seem to care

I plan to connect the 804B to the outback AC IN as follows:

Red L1 to L1 of the genset
Black L2 to L3 of the genset
White N to Neutral on the genset
Green G ground to G ground on the genset

Generator will be at 2/3 capacity
But as we have seen, they do not seem to care

Thank you for your feedback and advice!
I do take mouse control seriously, those little buggers are a real pita
I have trapped 11 in one bucket trap in one night before, during spring summer fall I usually run 3-4 bucket traps around the main house daily
we have 3 cats that live in the shop

We do not use poison for fear that a dog or cat might eat a dead mouse....but then I'm not sure they would eat a dead mouse

here are some today pics of the genset
All fluids are good, fresh batteries wired in, starts right up and runs perfectly well

 

[loosegravel]

Nice looking unit. I will hesitate to comment on the 240V capabilities of the MEP-804B as I simply don't have the experience. I double checked and everything in my house is ok with 208V, so I don't have an issue with using mine the way that it is. However, the 4 wire hook-up that you described sounds good. L1 & L3 is correct for the hot leads and of course neutral. The grounding portion I believe is the most important. Can't stress that enough. Don't leave that one open! Good luck on your ventures!

 

[Coug]

I would say NOT to change it to the 240/416, because it would be double the voltage you are set for (the 240 is from line to neutral in this setting)

in the 120/208 setting you will still see 120V from line to neutral, the same as the Kohler. If both of your inverter/chargers are set to 120V in they don't care what the line to line voltage is, just the line to neutral where they are hooked up (unless for some reason they are cross connected, which makes no sense for most applications if it's even possible with your model).

As others have said, these generator hears are overbuilt. Even the cheapest gen in your yard will likely say in the owner's manual not to run more than 50% imbalanced. Running one of these at 2/3 load if the load is evenly onto each of the 2 phases you are using shouldn't cause any issues.

If it really concerns you that much you could do what others have suggested and run a load on the third phase, a couple or three cheap 1500 watt electric heaters should be just fine for this (especially with how cold it is, no sense in wasting that fuel for no benefit). Or using that phase for some other use like a 120V water heater (I've seen 3kw ones), a well pump and larger water storage tank, or any other application where you don't actually require it, but might as well use it while the other 2 phases primarily charge the battery bank when the gen is running.


(as for your generac, there should be an automatic voltage regulator in the control panel. Depending on model it may even be accessible from outside the generator on the left side (as facing the control panel), just a little hole you can put a small screwdriver (flathead, 1/8" or smaller) in and turn a pot. either that or the RPMs need adjusted up a little bit, especially if it is one of the manual throttle versions. Should be about 61.5-62hz unloaded and can be down to 58.5hz fully loaded.
Side note to this, I've worked on those GN990 and 999 engines that have near 5k hours on them on propane and still ran just fine, with gasoline and full synthetic 5w30 oil they should last even longer. any questions about it feel free to PM me I'm a commercial Generac tech, though I mostly work on standby generators.)

 

[410Customs]

okay phew, I do not need double the voltage!

120V from Line to N is what I need, thank you for the clarification

So to put a load on the third phase I can run a 120V shop heater on L2 and N, that would work awesome! I have a LPG shop heater that we can plug in on the third leg

The ground will go to the same bus bar the kohler and generac grounds are hooked too. basically I am putting the 804b directly in place of the kohler. It will hook up to the house in the exact same way, except now we have eliminated the 30 amp toggle switch. So until I install a true transfer switch the 804B will be hard wired directly to AC in (through the outback breaker of course)

The portable generac is a GP15000E
I believe it has the 999cc V twin same as your standby sets
I will look for a pot screw on the portable
It does have auto idle control, but I always leave it off because otherwise I have to stand there and wait for the house to connect to it then turn the idle control on otherwise the generac will idle down and the house never connects. With the idle control on I never saw any changes to the idle speed once connected to the house. However now I am paying more attention to the voltages at each leg, it would be nice to fine tune the idle
Most of the issues the portable has are small, like the gasoline tank vent keeps coming off the tank, had to put a screw in that and it spit out its spark arrestor right out of the exhaust tip, metal tab that holds the screen in broke off.
The intake would ice up every winter but that was my fault I did not read the fine print on the de icer valve.
It has been a good portable, just noisy and rattles plus man oh man that sucker drinks gasoline, 5-10 gallons a day. 87 octane is $2.80 a gallon up here right now...

the kohler I expected to live much longer then 2700 hours as well, but it was not mine since new and has had issues for us since day one. It is a 2014 model RES14 LPG. When we first got it every winter at some point it would start to surge......this was fixed with a new governor (drive by wire throttle controller)
The second winter, same thing, surging, new governor.........this year same thing super cold, started to surge or "hunt" and then backfire.... new governor did nothing to fix it this time. Keep in mind I am a mechanic that builds custom trucks. Maintenance is my thing, the kohler gets oil change at 100-200 hours, air filter, plugs regularly, case cleaned, etc I was running mobil one 0W-40 in there on the advice of the previous owner. This is a Kohler 24 HP V twin set to LPG. A new engine from Kohler is $1700 not bad.... but I have rebuilt many V twins over the years this one will be no different. I need to do a compression test and pull the valve covers. They are known for having the exhaust valves overheat and then lose their seal.... it sure sounds mechanical/internal engine metal on metal noise, when it is running. It has gotten progressively worse until now finally it will only run for a few minutes before "low frequency shutdown" even with no load. To me a backfire through the intake is almost always a lean condition..... so something is going on in there for sure. I am done messing with it, as it chews through 800+ gallons of propane each winter..... that is alot of run time in 5 months (not much sun in North Idaho during winter)
We get our propane at 1.30 a gallon we buy it in the fall, not a bad price, but 800+ gallons a winter is not sustainable

We own and operate many diesel rigs (I have 3ea 7.3 trucks E350, F350 and an Excursion), I am a big fan of diesels and I work on them alot (have John deer tractor w 3 cyl yanmar, Takeuchi excavator w 3 cyl yanmar, case dozer with 4 cyl case engine.............. so this Yanmar turbo is a welcomed addition!
Off road diesel is like 1.70/gal or so right now, this is our best fuel source for generating power IMO

Once again thanks dudes! Today I will be using the 804b to power the house and charge the battery bank!! I will let you know how it goes!
The future is RED DIESEL!!!!!
Now I need to find/build a 150-250 gallon portable diesel trailer so I can haul it 4 miles to the nearest station and fill it up, I love the fact that the 804B will suck fuel from an aux tank with no need for a transfer pump!!!