sermis
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Has anyone used mineral oil as a fuel in the deuce. I have a line on used mineral oil. The oil was used in transformers and is changed out. Think it would work?
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Mineral oil as fuel
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BFR
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pcb's????
sermis
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PCB's. I thought that the current oil was not as bad as the old stuff that was used. I know EPA changed several rules about what could be used. Is meneral oil a form of desiel?
sermis
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Still can't find much info on mineral oil used as fuel. Did find info the the Govt. stoped the PCB oils around 1960 in transformers. Seams to me like if it would work, someone here would have tried it.
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Start with small %'s first. Mabye run a tank with 5% min oil to diesel first. That's what i did with used motor oil. If it runs good, then go up to 10%. and so on. I prolly wouldn't go more than 30% max.But before you dump it in. Pour a small amount into a glass jar. Then add some diesel. You may have to stur it. This way you can see how well it blends. If it seperates over night, then i wouldn't use it.
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I know a guy who hauls for Quality Carriers. They haul the oil for transformers out here. He has run the NEW oil for the transformers in his truck since new..1999 Cummins N14 @ 525 hp.. We are the only guys that do work on his engine, unless absolutly necessary. 800k + miles, not 1 injector failure. I didn't believe him, so I checked. No warranty claims for injectors for the 1st 500k/ 5 years, that's the base warranty and his extended warranty! As far as I know, uo to the last time he came in...maybe a month ago...still has the original sparkplugs in the engine. Next time he comes in, i'll ask him about the used oil, where it goes etc.
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I think there are 3 types of oil:
Mineral oil - from drilled wells
Vegetable oil - from plants
Synthetic oil - manufactured chemically.
Mineral oil is a very general term.It is Crude oil ,and it is the middle section crude oil . Refectory towers separate crude into various products by their volatility,aka the temp the vaporize /condense.Something like(from bottom up) asphalt ,lubricating oil,heating oil,kero,gasoline,thinners ,propane,butane...They use heat and chemicals to crack the heavy stuff ,and chemicals to combine the lighter,to extract more gasoline,because more is used.
Synthetic oil is not much different than regular oil.By building the molecules chemically the final mixture is more uniform.Regular motor oil is a bit of a stew,some molecules are less desirable.Some are rather fragile and don't hold together as well as, say ,a few carefully chosen,then fabricated chemically,molecules.There is a lot of cost for a slightly better product.It does excel in some areas.It probably comes with a premium additive package.
Anyways the mineral oil you have may ,or more probably may not, be well suited for a diesel engine.I'm no expert but would guess that problems encountered may include - incorrect cetane rating,high viscosity that injects or sprays poorly,leaves carbon or other residue, may not work at low temp,may contain additives that react or become abrasive(ash)or acidic,may foul the fuel system...JimK
Mineral oil - from drilled wells
Vegetable oil - from plants
Synthetic oil - manufactured chemically.
Mineral oil is a very general term.It is Crude oil ,and it is the middle section crude oil . Refectory towers separate crude into various products by their volatility,aka the temp the vaporize /condense.Something like(from bottom up) asphalt ,lubricating oil,heating oil,kero,gasoline,thinners ,propane,butane...They use heat and chemicals to crack the heavy stuff ,and chemicals to combine the lighter,to extract more gasoline,because more is used.
Synthetic oil is not much different than regular oil.By building the molecules chemically the final mixture is more uniform.Regular motor oil is a bit of a stew,some molecules are less desirable.Some are rather fragile and don't hold together as well as, say ,a few carefully chosen,then fabricated chemically,molecules.There is a lot of cost for a slightly better product.It does excel in some areas.It probably comes with a premium additive package.
Anyways the mineral oil you have may ,or more probably may not, be well suited for a diesel engine.I'm no expert but would guess that problems encountered may include - incorrect cetane rating,high viscosity that injects or sprays poorly,leaves carbon or other residue, may not work at low temp,may contain additives that react or become abrasive(ash)or acidic,may foul the fuel system...JimK
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Jim, what engine does your mack have?
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Ken,
First I should clarify . 'Mine' means an assigned company single axle tractor.Every few years I get a new one. R's then ,U's, CH's and now the 06' Vision.I often use ,even prefer,older equipment.Our oldest is about 11 years old,a good 25 years newer than My 3 Stooges.
The data plate on the engine says EM7-315. I wanted to provide you a link so I put that in goggle and got just 2 hits, both posts I made here.Hmmm.I went to the Mack site and they do not show EM7s series.Best answer here is it is probably an uprated EM7-250,275,or 300.It is 728CI has Renault cast into the block.(Renault and Mack merged in 79') and uses a big variable nozzle turbocharger.It is intercooled and the fuel is heated.
When I used the 250's our twin screws had 275's. Then the single axles went 275.Now 315.They turned all them down when fuel prices went up (after 9-11).The new 315 was very strong until the turbo failure.I was surprised when It came back from the shop with the same block,and undisturbed.Mack must still be using the screen to catch blown turbine litter.It is now weak. Like the 250 after it was turned down.The vari-nozzle sound used to change pitch.Now it does not.Others tractors have had similar failure/output changes.
My employer is based near Mack's Allentown factory.They regularly buy lots of 50,special ordered .They have over 800 tractors, maybe 80% are Mack's .They may have asked to stay with the older series engine for service and parts reasons.Still,it would seem there should be some internet chatter.Maybe too new or specialized.Hope this answers your question.
JimK
p.s. The E stands for 'electronic'.M-Mack(?) .7 the series.It is not the same as the E7's
First I should clarify . 'Mine' means an assigned company single axle tractor.Every few years I get a new one. R's then ,U's, CH's and now the 06' Vision.I often use ,even prefer,older equipment.Our oldest is about 11 years old,a good 25 years newer than My 3 Stooges.
The data plate on the engine says EM7-315. I wanted to provide you a link so I put that in goggle and got just 2 hits, both posts I made here.Hmmm.I went to the Mack site and they do not show EM7s series.Best answer here is it is probably an uprated EM7-250,275,or 300.It is 728CI has Renault cast into the block.(Renault and Mack merged in 79') and uses a big variable nozzle turbocharger.It is intercooled and the fuel is heated.
When I used the 250's our twin screws had 275's. Then the single axles went 275.Now 315.They turned all them down when fuel prices went up (after 9-11).The new 315 was very strong until the turbo failure.I was surprised when It came back from the shop with the same block,and undisturbed.Mack must still be using the screen to catch blown turbine litter.It is now weak. Like the 250 after it was turned down.The vari-nozzle sound used to change pitch.Now it does not.Others tractors have had similar failure/output changes.
My employer is based near Mack's Allentown factory.They regularly buy lots of 50,special ordered .They have over 800 tractors, maybe 80% are Mack's .They may have asked to stay with the older series engine for service and parts reasons.Still,it would seem there should be some internet chatter.Maybe too new or specialized.Hope this answers your question.
JimK
p.s. The E stands for 'electronic'.M-Mack(?) .7 the series.It is not the same as the E7's
sermis
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The mineral oil I am talking about is from large electrical transformers. When they work on the transformers they always replace the oil with fresh. I can’t find much info on anyone using this type of oil as a fuel.
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Sorry, i'm kind of old school. Sparkplugs = injectors. It's a normal thing for them to fail quite frequently. Ezra hasn't lost one yet, that I know of. Like I said' i'll ask the next time he is in.
sermis
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I would like to know if he is running 100% mineral oil or mixing with diesel.
Duck
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Duck
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Duck
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Sermis,
we had a company deliver new mineral oil ( shell diala) for our transformers out here in SoCal, the truck drivers that brought it from L.A. told us they burn any left over (new stuff, not used) in their trucks all the time. I think they mixed it 50/50, let me see if I can find their number... I should have it somewhere around the mess that is my desk. You could ask the guys that deliver it ...
here's a link to Shell's page about Diala:
http://www.shellusserver.com/products/pdf/DialaAX.pdf
As for the used stuff, as long as it doesn't look super dark, it should be ok if it passes a few concern points. On the PCB front, you can't really tell how "crapped up" it is by color, I've personally pulled coffee colored oil all the way to perfectly clear like brand new...PCB's can be all over the chart. there are a few old timer Southern California Edison guys around that swear PCB's aren't that harmful, they used to dip their arms into the stuff. like anything else, it may be harmful if you are pre-disposed to it, blah, blah...
For me, more than the PCB content, why are they giving it away? Transformer oil isn't cheap ( roughly $6/gal for 10k gallons, iirc) last time I got it, but that included delivery lousiana to SoCal.
I would be more worried about Dissolved gases in the oil. Transformers can make numerous gases that may have some negative effects on a diesel motor. Due to different things happening inside due to loose connections or outright elelctrical faults you could have a generation of methane, ethane, ethylene or acetelyene, along with nitrogen and oxygen. I've worked at a power plant since 1988 and have been around transformers a little longer than that. The oil stays in the transformer unless there is a PCB concern or something else happens that filter pressing and vacuum drying the oil won't fix. the only reason I could see them changing the oil out without a pre-existing problem would be an upgrade in oil type due to Insurance requirements to switch to something more fire resistant than the mineral oil. If they are changing it to get rid of the original transformer oil(Askeral or similar), most likely it would be very high concentration PCB stuff. It would seem they wouldn't be giving away >50 PPM PCB because that would be Federally controlled Hazardous waste, but we all know there are people out there that don't exactly follow the rules all the time.
There is also a procedure to "scrub" PCB's out of Oil filled transformers ( for disposal or reuse) by filling them with Diesel fuel and wait 24 hours or more to allow the diesel to absorb the PCB, then drain and refill with more diesel, then drain and refill with clean oil , then drain and refill again with clean oil to get a previously PCB crapped transformer (XFMR) back to less than 50 PPM. ( We are getting ready to correct a small XFMR here by draining and just refilling with new oil. It's at 375 ppm PCB right now, easier to fill with clean oil, that'll bring it down to where we have some more time to deal with it)
I would ask for a analysis of the oil, or Sermis,you can send me a little bottle of it and I'll run it to SCE's lab( the local power company, I know the guys at the lab well from all the XFMR oil I take there)
Bottom line, find out why they are really changing out the oil. It's not normal for any utility I know of to change out the oil unless there's a problem with the oil, either real or imagined by the lawyers. A little long winded, but hopefully helpful..
we had a company deliver new mineral oil ( shell diala) for our transformers out here in SoCal, the truck drivers that brought it from L.A. told us they burn any left over (new stuff, not used) in their trucks all the time. I think they mixed it 50/50, let me see if I can find their number... I should have it somewhere around the mess that is my desk. You could ask the guys that deliver it ...
here's a link to Shell's page about Diala:
http://www.shellusserver.com/products/pdf/DialaAX.pdf
As for the used stuff, as long as it doesn't look super dark, it should be ok if it passes a few concern points. On the PCB front, you can't really tell how "crapped up" it is by color, I've personally pulled coffee colored oil all the way to perfectly clear like brand new...PCB's can be all over the chart. there are a few old timer Southern California Edison guys around that swear PCB's aren't that harmful, they used to dip their arms into the stuff. like anything else, it may be harmful if you are pre-disposed to it, blah, blah...
For me, more than the PCB content, why are they giving it away? Transformer oil isn't cheap ( roughly $6/gal for 10k gallons, iirc) last time I got it, but that included delivery lousiana to SoCal.
I would be more worried about Dissolved gases in the oil. Transformers can make numerous gases that may have some negative effects on a diesel motor. Due to different things happening inside due to loose connections or outright elelctrical faults you could have a generation of methane, ethane, ethylene or acetelyene, along with nitrogen and oxygen. I've worked at a power plant since 1988 and have been around transformers a little longer than that. The oil stays in the transformer unless there is a PCB concern or something else happens that filter pressing and vacuum drying the oil won't fix. the only reason I could see them changing the oil out without a pre-existing problem would be an upgrade in oil type due to Insurance requirements to switch to something more fire resistant than the mineral oil. If they are changing it to get rid of the original transformer oil(Askeral or similar), most likely it would be very high concentration PCB stuff. It would seem they wouldn't be giving away >50 PPM PCB because that would be Federally controlled Hazardous waste, but we all know there are people out there that don't exactly follow the rules all the time.
There is also a procedure to "scrub" PCB's out of Oil filled transformers ( for disposal or reuse) by filling them with Diesel fuel and wait 24 hours or more to allow the diesel to absorb the PCB, then drain and refill with more diesel, then drain and refill with clean oil , then drain and refill again with clean oil to get a previously PCB crapped transformer (XFMR) back to less than 50 PPM. ( We are getting ready to correct a small XFMR here by draining and just refilling with new oil. It's at 375 ppm PCB right now, easier to fill with clean oil, that'll bring it down to where we have some more time to deal with it)
I would ask for a analysis of the oil, or Sermis,you can send me a little bottle of it and I'll run it to SCE's lab( the local power company, I know the guys at the lab well from all the XFMR oil I take there)
Bottom line, find out why they are really changing out the oil. It's not normal for any utility I know of to change out the oil unless there's a problem with the oil, either real or imagined by the lawyers. A little long winded, but hopefully helpful..
p.s. the change in color from clear to darker is due to the oil absorbing the cellulose that breaks down due to heat over the life of the XFMR. not sure how that would affect the usability of the oil, we routinely put it back in service after filterpress and vac dry regardless of final oil color...
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dmetalmiki
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Interesting reading these posts.....I have a source of old transformer oil..but dont use it..in any of my multifuels..as (logic???) decrees that P.C.Bs and tranformers PROBABLY!? are NOT filled with flammable oil!!. So..I ponder why should it BURN (anything!) like..diesel which..IS?......(and even IF fired..WHAT residues are created,?)