Multifuel Gensets?

[tamangel]

I usually hang out in the Deuce forums but had a question re: multifuel (like a deuce engine) gensets. Do they even exist....say in the range of say 10-20K range..? What I'm looking at is an auto start home genset for power outages. The house is heated with home #2 heating oil and 20% biofuel. Was wondering if I could use this fuel (or any other available/flamable resource) for the genset also.. Any info appreciated on pro's / con's..

Mike

Light travels faster than sound.
This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

 

[5tonpuller]

the multi will not mind the 20% mix. the only thing is if it got real cold. ( od course with any oil that cold will get thick)
I would be more into the controls for the auto start and the throttle controls.
My $0.05 worth

 

[JDToumanian]

You mean a 10-20 kw genset that operates like a deuce's Multifuel engine? From your wording it could be read as, your looking for a Multifuel powered genset (using a deuce engine) for $10-$20k (as in you have $10,000-$20,000 to spend on one). A genset like that would probably be over 100 kw. and way, way overkill for a private residence, unless you need the power for the growlights on a giant indoor pot farm.

I'm not aware of any smaller diesel gensets that are marketed as "multifuel", but I don't think most diesels would mind burning 80% heating oil / 20% biodiesel.

Jon

 

[tamangel]

"You mean a 10-20 kw genset that operates like a deuce's Multifuel engine??"

Yes, thats what I meant..Clear as mud..sorry...What I meant to say was that I looking for a genset that has a wide range of fuel choices LIKE a Deuce multifuel engine that would supply power in the 10-20 kilowatt range...

Thanks for clarifying that..

Mike

 

[Beerslayer]

Searched and. Searched. Thought I would resurrect this thread to pose the question:

Has anyone tried running an MEP gen set on WMO mixtures?

I have spent days reading here, Diesel Stop, Smokstak, and what I have learned is that many people are running all kinds of diesel engines on WMO, both straight and mixtures. The limiting factors seem to be fuel and ambient temperature, and modern emissions controls on diesels.

I liked Wreckerman's idea of running a PTO powered generator from the front of the deuce, but it is overkill and not possible to auto switch.

So - any reason why an MEP generator won't run on straight WMO if the fuel is kept warm?

 

[Isaac-1]

I assume your looking at the smaller MEP series generators like the 002 (5KW) and 003 (10KW), both of these us a militarized bored out version of the Onan Diesel J series enginies, so you may have better look searching for people with success running bio-diesel in the Onan DJC, DJF, etc.. As to multifuel issues there are any number of wear issues, chemical compatibilty with rubber parts, etc. to be aware of. As to certification on alternate fuels all i can tell you is the tech manual for my little 3kw 3600 rpm MEP-0016b/701a mentions use of JP5 in emergency situations with some altitude/temperature limits and about 20% higher than normal fuel consumption.

Ike

 

[tmbrwolf]

The MEP series 3K, 5K, 10K, gen sets were designed to run on diesel only from the factory, in the military we did run them on JP-8, as well as the trucks, using JP-8 the fuel consumption charts in the manual went right dowm the toilet! IIRC the manual for the 10K states fuel consumption to be around 1.8 GPH, on JP-8 it was around 2.5 GPH. The only "multifuel" or "bi-fuel" type generators that I've seen are some that could run on gasoline or propane.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

They did make a multi powered gen set, at least one. And it is for sale.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]80 KW [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]80 Kilowatt Generator[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Model: LSA44.1L6C6/4[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]60 HZ cycle[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Volts: 120/208/240/416[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Single & Three phase[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]LDT465 Continental Engine[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Wt: approx 3500 lbs[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]L-88" W-32" H-57"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Self Contained[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Skid Mounted[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]new generator[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]low hour engine[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Price: $8,000.00[/FONT]
​

It's been for sale at White owl Truck parts for quite a while now.​

 

[originalboxcar]

I believe per the manual, the MEP002a runs primarily on diesel and JP-4 for emergency. The fuel cap on my 002 says JP-8.

t~

 

[Beerslayer]

I read the manuals, read everything I could find here and elsewhere. I appreciate the helpful replies about what the manual says, but I know what the recommended fuel is for the MEP generators. Diesel.

Ford and Cummins also specify diesel fuel only in the manuals for their pickups but there are a lot of people successfully burning WMO in them.

The generators I was interested in at Ft Lewis sold for a lot more than I was willing to pay for them today, but I will keep looking.

Back to my question above:

Has anyone tried running an MEP gen set on WMO mixtures?

Anyone tried it yet?

 

[TexAndy]

Put a generator head on a LDT-465. Or build a custom alternator for it.

 

[Beerslayer]

Put a generator head on a LDT-465. Or build a custom alternator for it.

I love that idea! That's what I was thinking when I started looking into this.

Turns out that generator sizing is a bit complicated. If the generator does not operate under a heavy enough load then you get what's called Wet Stacking.

The LDT-465 is just too big for my application.

What I am wanting to do is setup a transfer switch that switches to inverter/batteries when the power goes out. Then an auto start for the gen set to charge the batteries when they need it.

Probably need about 5KW to do that for my load. I think the LDT-465 will handle about 40KW or so, and would run too lightly loaded for my application.

Fuel consumption is another consideration. Just because it will burn WMO doesn't mean WMO is free as in magically appears itself in my bulk fuel tank without any cost or effort involved.

I am also considering one of the Listeroid powered gen sets. They will burn just about anything if it is clean and warm.

 

[Speddmon]

The LDT would do more than 40 KW probably. In the industry the rule of thumb is about 2 HP per KW...give or take.

 

[Beerslayer]

The LDT would do more than 40 KW probably. In the industry the rule of thumb is about 2 HP per KW...give or take.

Yep. Way overkill for a light residential application. There is also the issue of adding the controls so it will auto start.

I love the mulitfuel engine, but it is not something you can just connect some controls up to and expect it to be remotely run. It needs some hand loving and attention.

 

[TexAndy]

Lister diesels are pretty cool. Very low rpm. Real fuel sippers, too.

There's a company in India that makes them new, fairly cheaply. Good quality, too.

Read all about this guy's projects here
Lister CS slow speed cold start diesel generator** India

eta: Or if you REALLY want to go multifuel... you could always run an EXTERNAL combustion engine. Don't laugh, there are people who currently generate electricity this way.

 

[Chief_919]

I love that idea! That's what I was thinking when I started looking into this.

Turns out that generator sizing is a bit complicated. If the generator does not operate under a heavy enough load then you get what's called Wet Stacking.

The LDT-465 is just too big for my application.

What I am wanting to do is setup a transfer switch that switches to inverter/batteries when the power goes out. Then an auto start for the gen set to charge the batteries when they need it.

Probably need about 5KW to do that for my load. I think the LDT-465 will handle about 40KW or so, and would run too lightly loaded for my application.

Fuel consumption is another consideration. Just because it will burn WMO doesn't mean WMO is free as in magically appears itself in my bulk fuel tank without any cost or effort involved.

I am also considering one of the Listeroid powered gen sets. They will burn just about anything if it is clean and warm.

I just picked up two units that are complete with automatic transfer switch. These were used for mountaintop radio sites, and were maintaned monthly by the power company that leased them.

They are propane/natural gas powered, 8.5 kw on propane and 7.5 kw on NG. The great thing about using Propane for your emergency backup is that it does not go bad. I love diesel, but for this use propane seems best.

One is going at the house, one is going to get sold most likely.

 

[jdmcgowen]

They did make a multi powered gen set, at least one. And it is for sale.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]80 KW [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]80 Kilowatt Generator[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Model: LSA44.1L6C6/4[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]60 HZ cycle[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Volts: 120/208/240/416[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Single & Three phase[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]LDT465 Continental Engine[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Wt: approx 3500 lbs[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]L-88" W-32" H-57"[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Self Contained[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Skid Mounted[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]new generator[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]low hour engine[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, adobe-helvetica, Arial Narrow]Price: $8,000.00[/FONT]
​

It's been for sale at White owl Truck parts for quite a while now.​

I'm liking this. Let's see.... Diesel electric Hybrid Deuce!

 

[OPCOM]

one at Groban Supply. Just needs a little work.

good pics here.
Untitled Normal Page

 

[Ferroequinologist]

The 'Multi fuel' part of the engines are way over blown. What I mean by that, is all diesel engines, by the vary nature of their operation, are 'multi fuel'. The multi fuel engines in deuces were specifically designed to operate at a given power range on several different fuels. Obviously to burn gasoline in a diesel it would have to be set up a certain way. Also, the FDC was installed to help regulate the power band based on the different fuels. That component also adds to the 'Multi fuel' designation.

Any diesel engine can operate on a liquid fuel that meets a certain BTU and viscosity range. I've run my 2004 dodge with a cummins on WMO, WVO, Bio, straight diesel, and Kero/WMO mix (when diesel was like $6 here and I could get kero for $2.50) and have had zero problems. When I was in the Navy we did a cruise around South America. We got all kinds of crazy types of fuel. Anything from looking and smelling like 90W oil to Aviation Kero. The engines burned it just fine. (they REALLY liked the Aviation fuel)

As long as the WMO you are using isn't too thick, a MEP should operate on a BLEND of it fine. I wouldn't run it straight, as it can lead to coking. I don't run it straight in my truck for the same reason.

 

[Beerslayer]

Thank you very much. This is what I thought the case was, but was not sure.

I didn't know about the coking. Did a little reading here:
Fuel Injector Cleaner
And this is the salient point "[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The # 1 cause of dirty injectors is bad fuel. Bad fuel can be old, contaminated and just poor quality"

During my continued research on this I read a lot of the Lister/Listeroid sites. One recommendation was to use a little, say 3%, Acetone in WMO as it reduces the oil's surface tension and aids atomization. That would be a 1.5 gallons of acetone per 50 gallon tank of fuel. Acetone could probably be had for $7 per gallon if one were to buy in quantity. Were that the case it would add $.21 per gallon to the cost of the WMO. Probably cheaper than cutting it with diesel.
[/FONT]