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Never saw this info before regarding 28MT starters

edpdx

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These are two excerpts from a DELCO REMY .pdf on their Gear reduction starters:
Code:
The switch and wiring must meet or
exceed a current rating of 300 amperes for 12V starters and 200 amperes for 24V starters. When replacing a 24V
starter on all vehicles prior to 1990, the control circuit must be checked for conformance to the 200 ampere
requirement.
What exactly does the above statement mean?
Code:
BATTERY COLD CRANKING AMPERES (CCA)
Excessive available CCA can damage starters. CCA rating is the current a battery can supply at “0” degree F (-18C) [See
TMC RP 109A]. Following are Maximum Battery CCA Recommendations for Delco Remy Starters by Series:
28MT 12V 1100 CCA 29MT 12V 2500 CCA
24V 900 CCA 24V 1250 CCA
Any chance my two combined group 31 batteries are blowing my starter solenoids?
REF: Instruction Sheet. Reference: Service Bulletin 1B-216, 1M-153 10511648
12SE08 C/P16954 REV 1
 

Dave Kay

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These are two excerpts from a DELCO REMY .pdf on their Gear reduction starters:
Code:
The switch and wiring must meet or
exceed a current rating of 300 amperes for 12V starters and 200 amperes for 24V starters. When replacing a 24V
starter on all vehicles prior to 1990, the control circuit must be checked for conformance to the 200 ampere
requirement.
What exactly does the above statement mean?
Code:
BATTERY COLD CRANKING AMPERES (CCA)
Excessive available CCA can damage starters. CCA rating is the current a battery can supply at “0” degree F (-18C) [See
TMC RP 109A]. Following are Maximum Battery CCA Recommendations for Delco Remy Starters by Series:
28MT 12V 1100 CCA 29MT 12V 2500 CCA
24V 900 CCA 24V 1250 CCA
Any chance my two combined group 31 batteries are blowing my starter solenoids?
REF: Instruction Sheet. Reference: Service Bulletin 1B-216, 1M-153 10511648
12SE08 C/P16954 REV 1

Bumping this thread because I am currently in starter replacement mode for my M1008. Was hoping to replace my original 27MT with 28MT and rebuild old starter on later date. Then I find this Delco service bulletin posted.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you read the entire paragraph (NOTICE) it is referring to a relay switch and required amps to supply the solenoid circuit. Then it refers to vehicles prior to 1990, and the solenoid control circuit must must be checked for 300/200 amp conformance. Do I have that right?

In which case, is this possibly the Doghead Relay Conversion we all know and love? And if Doghead Conversion is already done, are we good-to-go on 28MT starter upgrade w/no problems?

It would be much appreciated if someone please clarify this.
 

doghead

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It's referring to the starter relay/solenoid.

The doghead relay modification is referring to the under-dash starter relay that is used to switch the power to trigger the starter solenoid.

Two different things...
 

lavarok

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It's referring to the starter relay/solenoid.

The doghead relay modification is referring to the under-dash starter relay that is used to switch the power to trigger the starter solenoid.

Two different things...
The "doghead" relay is supplying power to the starter solenoid and it IS part of the control circuit referenced by the bulletin.
 

doghead

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I guess I should read it then! I didn't have time earlier when I posted.
 

doghead

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Yeah, it's kinda the same other than the fact that the CUCV under-dash relay was used only to use the(standard civilian) 12volt starting circuit to trigger the 24 volt start solenoid.

The fact that we have seen repeated failures with OEM cucv under-dash relays, and the DH relay mod in essence does provide the the improvement(higher amp rated relay) that the bulletin says to upgrade to.

Interesting.
 

Dave Kay

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Yeah, it's kinda the same other than the fact that the CUCV under-dash relay was used only to use the(standard civilian) 12volt starting circuit to trigger the 24 volt start solenoid.

The fact that we have seen repeated failures with OEM cucv under-dash relays, and the DH relay mod in essence does provide the the improvement(higher amp rated relay) that the bulletin says to upgrade to.

Interesting.

Thanks for that info Mr. D, and not real sure if I'm asking the right question here, but...if the DH relay itself is (I believe) rated for the recommended 200 amps then the wiring and connectors involved in that same circuit should also be 200 amp capacity?

Just asking, not trying to make a big deal of it because the DH upgrade worked fine with my original 27MT, no problems but it's getting on in age. And just wondering if there should be a further upgrade in the wires, etc., when going to a 28MT.
 

doghead

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The picture(drawing) in the Bulletin does not look to be sized to be rated for 200 amps.
 

Keith_J

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The under-dash relay wires are 12 AWG, except for the ground for the solenoid. That is insufficient for 200 amps steady state. I believe the 200 amp capacity is for inrush current, this and more importantly, the back EMF from the interruption in the current (the opposite effect of inrush) are what weld the original relay.

The DH relay has a more energetic solenoid throw which is resistant to contact welding.
 

doghead

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then the wiring and connectors involved in that same circuit should also be 200 amp capacity?
The starter solenoid circuit should never see that much load continuously. I think the stock wiring is adequate for the system, with the improved (DH)relay.

Also, I would suggest we don't confuse that bulletin with it directly addressing the under-dash relay used in the CUCV trucks.

We're just lucky our trucks have a perfect place to "add" the relay into our electrical systems(the under-dash relay).

This means the(DH mod) under-dash starter relay does 2 things. It upgrades us with an "additional" relay as the bulletin suggests, and it still switches 24 volts with 12 volts(original design). The second, is not done in civilian 12 volt vehicles (which I think the bulletin is addressing).

With approximately 200 members using the DH relay with no further trouble, I'd say it's well proven to be sufficient and worth doing.
 
Last edited:

MarcusOReallyus

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Confusion!

That bulletin is a bit confusing because it swaps around the terms, "switch", "solenoid", and "relay" interchangeably.

Well, they ARE the same thing. A magnetically controlled switch IS a relay, and a relay IS a magnetically controlled switch, and when we are talking about automotive starters, both of those terms are interchangeable with the term, "solenoid". They are all the same thing.

(NOTE: Properly speaking, "solenoid" is not quite the same thing. A solenoid can be used as a switch, and for many other things, but the automotive world has taken it to mean, "magnetically controlled switch". It's not very precise, but oh well.)


Okay, let me try to sort it out.

Remember what a relay does - it allows us to use a low-current circuit to switch a high-current circuit. The starter solenoid does exactly this - it's functionally the same thing as the under-dash relay.

So why have two?

Wire size and current capacity.

Hold that thought, and let's go back in time a bit.

My parent's '48 Chevy that they had when I was little (it was old already, okay?), had a starter switch on the floor. When the key was turned, all that happened was that the ignition circuit was completed. The car could have been manually cranked over at that point, or push-started. Nothing happens with the starter motor.

When Dad stomped on that big switch on the floor, that humongous switch closed and current flowed to the starter motor. There was no relay, no starter solenoid. All that starting current was handled by the starter switch. To handle that current, it had to be huge. WAAAY to big to fit in a keyswitch on the column!

As time when on, somebody decided to include a relay (solenoid) on the starter, so we could send some jolts to the starter motor via the key switch.

Great! Much easier!

But wait a minute. That solenoid is a big electromagnet, driving a spring-loaded electrical switch. It needs electric current to operate it. It doesn't require anywhere NEAR as much current as the starter motor itself, but it's still more than we can send through the key switch. Maybe it takes 20 or 25 amps or so. (Guessing here, but that's probably in the ballpark.) We really don't want to run that much current through the keyswitch. We'd need some big wires, and we'd have heat and size issues with the switch.

Hmmm. Okay, let's use a smaller relay to drive the solenoid. We can use a relay that needs only an amp or maybe a quarter amp to work, and still carry 30 amps or so of current. (A typical Bosch relay needs a quarter amp, and can be rated up to 40 amps.) NOW we can have small wires going to the keyswitch, and no heat or size problems with the keyswitch. :) And we get enough current through that smaller relay to drive the big electromagnet in the solenoid.

So that's what we have in modern vehicles, including our CUCVs. We have a smaller relay under the dash (or under the hood somewhere), driving a bigger relay (which we call the solenoid) on the starter motor. These are two different circuits which work together to turn the starter motor.

That 200 amp reference is ONLY talking about the circuit that provides current to the starter motor. This is switched by, and flows through, the solenoid. It does NOT flow through the under-dash relay.


Based on what I've read here about burned contacts in the OEM relay, it sounds to me like that relay was a bit undersized. That's why the Doghead relay cures the problem. It's built to handle a LOT more current than is required for that circuit. It's massive overkill, really. That makes it much more reliable than the OEM relay. :D

So, Doghead is right on the money. That bulletin has nothing to do with the Doghead relay. It's talking about the wiring from the batteries to the solenoid on the starter motor.


As to why electrical motors burn up - there are a few reasons that can happen.


  1. Too much voltage
  2. Too little voltage.
  3. Too much load.
That bulletin is really addressing #2, too little voltage. If your wiring is too small, you'll have too much voltage drop by the time you get to the starter motor. That makes them work too hard, and shortens the life.
 

doghead

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Well said(good enough to confuse almost every member we have!) And very correct.

The misuse of the terms solenoid and relay, is rampant. My simple explanation is, a relay simply has contacts and a solenoid does something mechanical(and has contacts in many cases)
 

Keith_J

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The reason for the under dash relay is to keep the ignition switch 12 volts. It also prolongs contact life in the column-mounted switch. That relay is far easier to swap.

The original is far too weak for the inductive kick in the starter solenoid. Unlike pure electrical solenoid relays, the starter-mounted relay must also push the pinion into mesh with the ring gear. Not only more force but also greater distance. Energy is the cross product of force and distance.
 

MarcusOReallyus

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The misuse of the terms solenoid and relay, is rampant. My simple explanation is, a relay simply has contacts and a solenoid does something mechanical(and has contacts in many cases)

Yes, ask a hydraulic engineer about solenoids and he's going to start thinking about electrically controlled valves that operate hydraulic things.


Ask a robotics engineer and he's going to start thinking about moving arms or opening fake eyelids or something.


A solenoid, at its simplest, is just an electromagnet driving a mechanical actuator of some kind. That mechanical actuator might operate a valve (water, gas, hydraulic fluid, air, whatever), an electrical switch, or just about anything else you might want.
 
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