New Advertiser

[ida34]

"WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Federal antitrust prosecutors charged
the owner of a Dover, Delaware, parts company today with
conspiring to rig bids on the purchase of $200,000 worth of
military surplus material sold at government auctions in the
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, area, the Department of Justice
announced."

Quoted from http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/Pre_96/September95/483.txt.html

The bold parts are the ones that I feel fueled the prosecution. Bolds added by me.

I have not read the Sherman Antitrust law in depth but I doubt they would prosecute two guys on two items totaling less than $2000 each. Like I said, it is a federal crime to vandalize a mailbox but I have never seen it ever prosecuted by the feds. I do thank you for the link. This is the one I read about and was quoted before. Again it may violate the law but there may be other reasons that there was a violation other than just the collusion. If this is the only case we hear about I doubt it is investigated and charged. I will take a look at the Sherman Anti-trust act. Just saying I am bidding on a certain auction in a public forum probably not be collusion. I will research that too. If I talk to another person point to point, say by PM I think you have collusion. Again, court cases are based on the facts of the case and I see none of the threads that did come up on the subject meeting the same facts or even close to the same facts. In our legal world there are no certainties. You can't base decision on simplistic general circumstances of a case. In other words. If I post that I am bidding on a certain item is not the same as a dealer making a deal with another dealer about not bidding on certain items and bidding on others.


Now to be perfectly clear. If I were to look at the Sherman Anti-trust law further and posting is clearly a violation I would not do it no matter how slight the chance of an actual prosecution.

Do you know of any other prosecutions? I did read through you links and it confirmed what I was thinking in that the Sherman Antitrust act is primarily dealing with businesses price fixing to the public. Some non-business were prosecuted but they were cartels and unions. I basically regulates monopolies. The specific case had as one of its elements conspiring. Just blindly posting is not a conspiracy. Communicating directly is conspiracy but talking out loud to everyone is not. Looking over everything I don't think just posting that you are bidding on something would amount to conspiracy or collusion. Saying that you do not want anyone to bid and in exchange you will not bid on something probably would but again it would be a creative application of the act since it was designed to regulate businesses not individuals.

At any rate this is just a discussion since the SS staff has already made a rule against posting the information.

Again, No flame. My point of view only and a friendly discussion.

On a separate note, I already have my reservation confirmed for Thunder Over Michigan. Are you planing on attending again? I hope to see you there.

 

[surpdlr]

Re: GL

Now... lets move on to statistics.. (someone asked.. yes it does tell the click rates and such)
Advertiser------------------views------clicks----click through rate
Front Line Military Vehicles--5,654-------361---------6.38% - -

So by views do you mean my pop ad has come up 5654 times in the 10 months they have been active? (Started in early March of last year) If so that is interesting since that is some of the info I asked for and was told you could not provide.... Because you had disabled the statics (email you sent me on 9 Feb 2007). 361 clicks in 10 months, not a very good bang for my buck!!!

As for the rates, I tried your site to see what would happen, and could not justify a big outlay on a gamble. As of now between your stats above, and tracking order info I can’t say that I got ANY increase from my pop up ads. All these ad’s seem to have done is to give me an excuse to support the web site for you. They certainly haven’t increased my revenue at all.

 

[mangus580]

Re: GL

Now... lets move on to statistics.. (someone asked.. yes it does tell the click rates and such)
Advertiser------------------views------clicks----click through rate
Front Line Military Vehicles--5,654-------361---------6.38% - -

So by views do you mean my pop ad has come up 5654 times in the 10 months they have been active? (Started in early March of last year) If so that is interesting since that is some of the info I asked for and was told you could not provide.... Because you had disabled the statics (email you sent me on 9 Feb 2007). 361 clicks in 10 months, not a very good bang for my buck!!!

As for the rates, I tried your site to see what would happen, and could not justify a big outlay on a gamble. As of now between your stats above, and tracking order info I can’t say that I got ANY increase from my pop up ads. All these ad’s seem to have done is to give me an excuse to support the web site for you. They certainly haven’t increased my revenue at all.

Apperantly I was not clear. Those statistics were for YESTARDAY only, from midnight, to the time of the post!

Yes, previously, the data was not available. Our new software that I just put into place provides this new information for us.

As for the ad's providing any addtional revenue to you, that I can not say. After looking into what advertising on such a site is worth, you got one heck of a bargain. Only you can determine if you would like to continue to advertise here.

 

[surpdlr]

Re: GL

Now... lets move on to statistics.. (someone asked.. yes it does tell the click rates and such)
Advertiser------------------views------clicks----click through rate
Front Line Military Vehicles--5,654-------361---------6.38% - -

So by views do you mean my pop ad has come up 5654 times in the 10 months they have been active? (Started in early March of last year) If so that is interesting since that is some of the info I asked for and was told you could not provide.... Because you had disabled the statics (email you sent me on 9 Feb 2007). 361 clicks in 10 months, not a very good bang for my buck!!!

As for the rates, I tried your site to see what would happen, and could not justify a big outlay on a gamble. As of now between your stats above, and tracking order info I can’t say that I got ANY increase from my pop up ads. All these ad’s seem to have done is to give me an excuse to support the web site for you. They certainly haven’t increased my revenue at all.

Apperantly I was not clear. Those statistics were for YESTARDAY only, from midnight, to the time of the post!

Yes, previously, the data was not available. Our new software that I just put into place provides this new information for us.

As for the ad's providing any addtional revenue to you, that I can not say. After looking into what advertising on such a site is worth, you got one heck of a bargain. Only you can determine if you would like to continue to advertise here.

No you were not clear. You must be counting hits and click through’s from web crawlers and robots. Below is a copy of my web sites stats for the MONTH to date. All month it looks like Steel Soldiers sent me a total of 91 visitors, how do you explain the difference from the 361 you claim for yesterday alone???? Those are the numbers reported by my web site host. From where I sit, it is not a cost efective way to advertise.

In fact you could pull my pop up's and refund me the 1 1/2 months that I still have paid for.

 

[Recovry4x4]

RE: Re: GL

Can this back and forth stuff be taken to PMs? I'm sure the lot of us aren't real intersted in clicks and dollars spent.

 

[ida34]

RE: Re: GL

I have went to your site before but never found what I was looking for. I would not have done so without the advertising. As I state above I always give first consideration to SS advertisers but if the prices are not competitive or what I want is not available then I must move on to another source. I don't remember what I was looking for when I looked at your site. I do know that I prefer a site that allows one to buy totally online instead of having to call but this seems like it is rare in the surplus market. I will still show first loyalty to SS advertisers when I need parts. I don't know how many other people feel the same way. This is no flame or slam just me telling you that the advertising worked to get me in the door to you business but once there I did not find what I needed.

 

[ida34]

RE: Re: GL

I agree Kenny. This should be handled by PM.

 

[devilman96]

Man… What did I miss here this weekend? LOL

I agree with David D… SS is a business… and it belongs to Chris… and the hobby is LUCKY to have him!!!

As a fellow advertiser and SS sponsor I have nothing to complain about!!! It’s the SS and MV community I have to thank for being in business to begin with… and quite honestly I think the current ad rates ARE NOT HIGH ENOUGH to allow ANYONE room to complain!!! Knowing my websites traffic and knowing 90% of it is generated from SS… It’s really hard to argue, let alone get upset about GL giving SS a source of revenue…

… and there is always the OTHER option… buying out GL’s ad spot!!!... I would call that....???.... “free market enterprise”... not a “dictatorship”!

Yes I miss the old DRMO auctions… most of us do... I don’t agree with GL… I have seen them put a LOT of smaller surplus businesses out on the street but I in no way blame SS for that… Nor am I going to complain about SS going after some long overdue sources of revenue… If I find it hurts my business I will have to step up and COMPETE with my advertising… sponsor more rally’s and events… and be more completive in my pricing to stay in the game!

Business is business… Now back to MV’s!!!

 

[steelsoldiers]

RE: Re: GL

I can't tell you how disappointed I am at the response to the GL advert. We have tried to do nothing, but good things for the MV community. We offer FREE membership to ANYONE with or without a MV. We offer a FREE chat room, video library, TM library, photo gallery and classified ads. We have always strived to keep it FREE so that anyone no matter what their income level, could be afforded the same information. In order to provide a FREE service, money has to come from other avenues besides a subscription charge. The easiest and most profitable way for SS to raise money has been advertising.

We started very small with Saturn Surplus a couple of years ago. Jay and Mark were nice enough to take a chance on us and we provided them very reasonable banner space. The banners did very well and the members of the site have done a great job of supporting Saturn. Later on we got offers from MVPAL, FLMV, OD Iron, David Doyle and a few others. We have provided very reasonable banner space for them too. It was a simple internet-handshake deal that was never held to any strict deadlines. As we started accumulating more advertisers, the need for some banner management software became clear. Mike was able to construct a very handy program that will handle all of the banner subscribers with ease and provide very useful stats to the subscriber. Now that the software is in place, we will be able to handle all of the advertising in a more professional manner. There were never any contracts before because we just wanted to keep things loose and simple. That was fine with our subscribers before now. All of our new advertisers will have a contract to sign though. That way people can't come back and say that SS has defrauded them in some way.

I am really shocked at the way some of you have responded to this in an open forum. If you have a personal problem with the way that any of this has been handled, you should have approached me off-line in a PM, email or phone call instead of blasting the forum with baseless attacks on our character. I started this site in 1999 as a place for MV lovers of all types to gather, show off their MV's, chat, sell items, etc... It has grown into an incredible site over the last 9 years thanks to the hard work and dedication of myself and lots of our members. For you guys to post that this is a greed issue really saddens me. I am a professional in eyecare, not the MV business. This is a hobby for me as much as it is the majority of you. I did not get into the MV website business to get rich or even turn a profit. I did it because I am a die-in-the-OD-wool MV nut like you guys. SS is not some big, evil, corporate giant without feelings. It is run by a few guys who have a love for the hobby. We're not trying to meet 1st quarter predictions for the stockholders. We are not becoming a subsidiary of Liquidity Services. We're not selling out to The Man. It's just an advertisement.

We will continue to provide a FREE family-friendly MV website. We will work to the best of our ability to keep it on the cutting edge. We will make hardware and software improvements as needed. We will continue to be available for tech support via chat, PM, email or phone call. We will continue to support the site with advertising. The stats that Mike posted previously show that banners posted here really work.

If you have anything to say to me or about me, PM me your number and I'll give you a call.

Sincerely,
Chris

 

[M1075]

RE: Re: GL

SS

 

[Rattlehead]

Wow, I am surprised as well at all the bashing. What is the harm? That a handful of GL auctions, out of the hundreds going on daily, are getting a little more exposure? And SS gets some financial support for the best MV site ever? And GL's involvement in the hobby might bring light to the customer service problems? The guys worried about GL prices going up should be more concerned with the BIG dealers and the exporters.

Some forums charge subscriptions, that is another option that I hope we don't come to, though I would still support it. I get more value from this site than I do from MV Magazine, which is a great publication and definitely worth the subscription price.

As far as value to the parts dealers advertising here, I hope they don't JUST consider the amount of clicks. I have ordered from Saturn and OD Iron because they had what I needed at reasonable prices, but also because they support the site. However, since I already know their website address I may visit it directly vs entering it from SS. (note to self, delete from favorites and enter from SS site). The biggest value to the advertisers is most likely from the newer guys, which are joining this site all the time.

Chris and all the moderators, thank you again for keeping this site going.

If nothing else, the GL ad in the corner makes for some nice, rotating green iron eye candy while visiting this site! There's an M818 up right now; ooohh that would look nice in my driveway!

 

[citizensoldier]

RE: Re: GL

For me personaly I was just debating the issue and exspressing concerns I have being a OD parts peddler.. and was always happy about the revenue to the site.. "A laborer is worthy of his hire" And the amount of time you guys put into this without compensation is amazing.. Personal attacks should be kept just that personal. PM, phone, regular email, snail mail, and out in the parking lot.. hehehee
Viva La Steel Soldiers !!!!!
Now on the other hand.. This just caught me off guard and I did not ever remember reading about a plea for some money, or ideas to develope money for the site because it needed it. Other than some donation talk. I think if asked many of us will open our wallets to help.. I know I would and still will if needed. Just watch out for the moths and bats they can take a eye out. Maybe a little more democracy in our benevolant dictatorship? Is that a oxymoreon?

 

[FormerNewMVGuy]

Well ,I'm a nobody here, but i would like to apoligize to chris for complaining about the GL ad! This is an awesome site for the MV enthusiast! When I got my truck i knew nothing about it! The way i learned was coming here and studying the TM's avalible to us at no cost! And also asking question's from the very knowagable group that frequents the forums
In the big picture here, It isnt really that big of a deal! And if it supports the site then i belive it is well worth it
Thanks to the staff ,Scott

 

[surpdlr]

BLANK

 

[mangus580]

RE: re: new advertiser

Jeff, I removed the other names in your post. It was expressed to me, he purposly avoided making any posts and/or comments regarding this issue. If he would like it to be added back, he can email me.

Hope you understand,
Mike

 

[DanMartin]

I agree with Maccus 100%. I love the SS site, and will spend my money with vendors who support it. I will not buy from those who actively detract from it.

My dollar is my vote on this issue.

 

[scooter01922]

I have got to say as a new guy around here that this place is simply amazing. I'm behind whatever it takes to keep it up and running. I still don't have an MV yet and sure getting one cheap would be nice. I'm rather doutful that the ad here will do much to the prices, seems everyone has already looked GL over. To those advertisers pulling thier ads: I don't have a truck yet and when i get one i'll surely need parts. If you aren't around here ( i'm here a lot) then how the heck am i supposed to buy from you??? Being a newbie i'll buy from someone in good standing with the MV community at large, like a supporter here with an easy to find link.

 

[Boatcarpenter]

Well, I'm not going to read this thread anymore, it makes me sad to read all the devisive and inflamatory remarks
BC

 

[hndrsonj]

I too will change my spending habits and will only support those who support us. I would like to see who else pulled their ads, as I will no longer buy from them. It is too bad it came to this for no logical reason. As far as the advertising my personal example would be with Saturn Surplus; I had no idea they existed until I found them here and have spent well over 2K with them since (as recent as last week). A GL ad would have zero effect on my purchasing with them; hopefully they were not the ones blanked out above. It seems the people with the most to gain are the vendors who have no problem with the ads. This is easily seen by watching the chatroom and seeing how many people are amazed at what happened here and have said they too will change their spending habits. As far as there being no complaints because they are now a paid advertiser I can't at all see that happening. I for one will post issues with them on S.S. and with them being an advertiser maybe they will take notice of some of our issues (like length of time for EUC's for example).

 

[SasquatchSanta]

NewMVGuy Wrote:

When I got my truck i knew nothing about it! The way i learned was coming here and studying the TM's avalible to us at no cost! And also asking question's from the very knowagable group that frequents the forums. In the big picture here, It isnt really that big of a deal! And if it supports the site then i belive it is well worth it

Very good point NewMVGuy! I've been into M37s for years but when I purchased my M35 from John Tennis, I'm sure I almost drove John nuts with all my silly questions.

When I found the SS website it was a blessing. Over the past couple of years I also have also frequented the SS forum for knowledge. In return along with supporting the site I’ve posted many details of modifications I’ve made to my truck on the site. Many of those modifications were a result of what I’d learned from other SS members.

As far as all the complaining and bellyaching about how GL advertising on SS will ruin the market --- I personally think (IMHO) this is a tempest in a teapot.

There was a lot of wisdom in Dman’s words when we wrote:

….If I find it hurts my business I will have to step up and COMPETE with my advertising… sponsor more rally’s and events… and be more completive in my pricing to stay in the game!