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New CUCV, now stuck at the grocery store :)
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ida34
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If this is the typical GM starter there is a solenoid that attaches at the top of the starter which acts like the ford soleniod on the fender and as the actuator that physically makes the bendix kick out and grab the ring gear. On 12 Gm vehicles there is no external solenoid. the start wire just runs to the solenoid on the starter along along with an always on connection to the battery. The diesel set up may have an external soleniod also. My point to all this is it sounds like the solenoid on the starter is fused internally always on and this would also explain the starter turning but the bendix not engaging the flex plate ring gear. The olds Diesels I worked on years ago had the same old GM set up with the solenoid attached to the starter. I would assume that the chevy starter is the same. If the starter turns and does not pull excessive amps then it should be good when you get the other stuff fixed.
The clicks described occur when the bendix kicks in and out when it does not have enough juice. Most of the time this is just a matter of having a weak battery. You might want to pull the starter out and have it tested then attach everything up and see what sort of voltage the starter would get if it was connected. You can then safely fix the other short without killing the battery or the starter. Attach a test light inplace of the starter until you can get the starting circuit to turn on and off with the switch like it should.
The clicks described occur when the bendix kicks in and out when it does not have enough juice. Most of the time this is just a matter of having a weak battery. You might want to pull the starter out and have it tested then attach everything up and see what sort of voltage the starter would get if it was connected. You can then safely fix the other short without killing the battery or the starter. Attach a test light inplace of the starter until you can get the starting circuit to turn on and off with the switch like it should.
CCATLETT1984
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I'd reccomend finding getting a budddy with a pcikup to tow you to you rhouse for further repairs, pull the starter and have it tested at a shop. Most places test for free and will tell you itf anything is wrong with it.
mangus580
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Guys!! The starter engaged when he jumped it with a bolt!
Remeber one important thing about the CUCV. there is a relay under the dash called a "starter relay". The purpose of this relay is to change the 12v 'signal' from the ignition to the 24v that the solenoid needs. Its VERY possible that the relay is the problem. Especially from all he is describing. Joe Young (mvtrucker) had this same problem a couple months ago.
Just doesnt make sense to yank the starter out until this is ruled out. He had the starter cranking the engine when he welded the bolt to the lugs
the truck just wouldnt start, because it was cold, and he couldnt run his manual glow plugs from under the truck.
Remeber one important thing about the CUCV. there is a relay under the dash called a "starter relay". The purpose of this relay is to change the 12v 'signal' from the ignition to the 24v that the solenoid needs. Its VERY possible that the relay is the problem. Especially from all he is describing. Joe Young (mvtrucker) had this same problem a couple months ago.
Just doesnt make sense to yank the starter out until this is ruled out. He had the starter cranking the engine when he welded the bolt to the lugs
the truck just wouldnt start, because it was cold, and he couldnt run his manual glow plugs from under the truck.
ida34
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This brings up a very good safety tip. The proper way to jump any starter soleniod is to jump the hot wire to the small wire that is the small current engagement wire that runs to the ignition switch. This is the only way to avoid the welding. If this does not work then the solenoid is not working and the only way to start is by jumping the big lugs. This is risky with so many amps running through the system.
He said he replace the relay under the dash and the starter immediatly began to spin with out the engine turning over. I think he fried the first relay and the solenoid is fused due to the fact that for this to happen the small wire engagement connection must be fused with the always on hot connection. This is why I say remover the starter and check the solenoid. I am willing to bet the solenoid is fused and needs to be replaced. The relay is obviously bad and he already has a good one. The fusing of the solenoid could be a product of a larger than normal current draw by the starter caused by a bad engine or a bad starter. It could also be from a long cranking cycle that has heated everything up. The fact that the bolt welded itself to the terminals tells me that starter was immediatly drawing too much current so that tells me starter is bad or engine is somewhat to tight causing it to turnover with alot of difficulty. It has been awhile but I was a certified mechanic for a while. I have seen alot of people blindly poke around trying to fix something for days when they don't understand the systems involved. The starter is not working. It is not starting the truck. Start there and work back from one component to the next until you get the the ignition switch.
Mike,
Besides the relay is there another solenoid other than the one on the starter? Also to answer your post. The bolt allowed much more current to flow then the regular parts of the system. When they were bypassed there was enough heat generated that the bolt welded itself to the terminals. Just because it worked with excessive amps does not mean it "works" for everyday use. The way you check them is you see how many amps it draws and if it draws to many amps it should be replaced. Kind of like saying that a garage door "works" when you have to have five guys to open it.
To everyone else. If you need a hammer to get a starter to work replace it. GM did not issue a ballpean hammer to use as a starter supplement. If you have to hit it then it need to be replaced.
I am not trying to bash anyone so please don't take offense. I just want him to have a working truck in the least amount of time. The excessive cranking a few days ago when it would not start probably caused the this problem to come up. Starters should only be engaged at the most 15 seconds at a time. They must then be allowed to cool down. They have a very limited duty cycle.
He said he replace the relay under the dash and the starter immediatly began to spin with out the engine turning over. I think he fried the first relay and the solenoid is fused due to the fact that for this to happen the small wire engagement connection must be fused with the always on hot connection. This is why I say remover the starter and check the solenoid. I am willing to bet the solenoid is fused and needs to be replaced. The relay is obviously bad and he already has a good one. The fusing of the solenoid could be a product of a larger than normal current draw by the starter caused by a bad engine or a bad starter. It could also be from a long cranking cycle that has heated everything up. The fact that the bolt welded itself to the terminals tells me that starter was immediatly drawing too much current so that tells me starter is bad or engine is somewhat to tight causing it to turnover with alot of difficulty. It has been awhile but I was a certified mechanic for a while. I have seen alot of people blindly poke around trying to fix something for days when they don't understand the systems involved. The starter is not working. It is not starting the truck. Start there and work back from one component to the next until you get the the ignition switch.
Mike,
Besides the relay is there another solenoid other than the one on the starter? Also to answer your post. The bolt allowed much more current to flow then the regular parts of the system. When they were bypassed there was enough heat generated that the bolt welded itself to the terminals. Just because it worked with excessive amps does not mean it "works" for everyday use. The way you check them is you see how many amps it draws and if it draws to many amps it should be replaced. Kind of like saying that a garage door "works" when you have to have five guys to open it.
To everyone else. If you need a hammer to get a starter to work replace it. GM did not issue a ballpean hammer to use as a starter supplement. If you have to hit it then it need to be replaced.
I am not trying to bash anyone so please don't take offense. I just want him to have a working truck in the least amount of time. The excessive cranking a few days ago when it would not start probably caused the this problem to come up. Starters should only be engaged at the most 15 seconds at a time. They must then be allowed to cool down. They have a very limited duty cycle.
mangus580
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Ida, there is the relay, and then the solenoid on the starter.
ida34
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Ok Mike,
I know sometimes people add a ford type solenoid (actually just a relay) because the GM starters are troublesome. I did not know if the diesel trucks were different from gas trucks. It sounds like your relay under the dash is the only difference. I revised my post but you seem to have seen it before I got it edited. I am not trying to sound like a know it all but I do have a better understanding of the system then most laymen I have come in contact with. I know I may be wrong and there are smarter people out there, but had to give my opinion. After hearing the posts and thinking about it a few minutes it looks pretty clear in my mind what is probably going on. I can't wait to hear him post what really is going on.
I know sometimes people add a ford type solenoid (actually just a relay) because the GM starters are troublesome. I did not know if the diesel trucks were different from gas trucks. It sounds like your relay under the dash is the only difference. I revised my post but you seem to have seen it before I got it edited. I am not trying to sound like a know it all but I do have a better understanding of the system then most laymen I have come in contact with. I know I may be wrong and there are smarter people out there, but had to give my opinion. After hearing the posts and thinking about it a few minutes it looks pretty clear in my mind what is probably going on. I can't wait to hear him post what really is going on.
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I'm with Ida34. When you hit turn the key, the car SHOULD start. No one is arguing that. And I'd bet money the the 'hit with a hammer' is NOT a consistent way to start your truck. BUT if it gets you home where YOU CAN fix this problem with all the tools at hand, that gets filed in the back of my head on the off chance that it's deseperation time.
I've been on long trips and would have been stranded, except for the 'kindness of strangers', which is why I stop and help people when ever I can.
I'd bet a Euro it's the starter. It's about a buck twenty.
I've been on long trips and would have been stranded, except for the 'kindness of strangers', which is why I stop and help people when ever I can.
I'd bet a Euro it's the starter. It's about a buck twenty.
xyzzy
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Ok, here's the latest.
I went down to the truck this morning, and tried the old starter relay. I could feel the starer relay "switch" in my hand when trying to start the truck, but -no response from the starter-. I then bypassed the relay entirely (thanks mangus!!) at the relay-plug and the starter began to whirr, but would not crank the engine.
So, it appears the original problem WAS the starter relay, and I probably burnt out the starter itself with my unintentional welding project when i crossed the posts on the starter with a bolt.
So, now I just need a proper relay, and a new starter, but I had to have the truck towed this morning since the lot owner was giving ultimatums to have it towed within the hour.
Thanks to everyone for their help on this, I sincerely appreciate it. I have learned an awful lot about the starting system in this truck, which I'm sure will prove to be quite valuable in the future.
Thanks.
I went down to the truck this morning, and tried the old starter relay. I could feel the starer relay "switch" in my hand when trying to start the truck, but -no response from the starter-. I then bypassed the relay entirely (thanks mangus!!) at the relay-plug and the starter began to whirr, but would not crank the engine.
So, it appears the original problem WAS the starter relay, and I probably burnt out the starter itself with my unintentional welding project when i crossed the posts on the starter with a bolt.
So, now I just need a proper relay, and a new starter, but I had to have the truck towed this morning since the lot owner was giving ultimatums to have it towed within the hour.
Thanks to everyone for their help on this, I sincerely appreciate it. I have learned an awful lot about the starting system in this truck, which I'm sure will prove to be quite valuable in the future.
Thanks.
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xyzzy,
Found the guy here in Denver who is supposed to do this type of work. His 'card' says "Best quality, Best Prices" and "R&R service available".
Contact info is AES
Automotive Exchange & Supply
303-937-1700
8 - 5 Mon - Fri
8 - 2 Saturday
Starters - Alternators - new quality clutch kits
I talked face to face with one of the employees and he said they had 'a contract' to rebuild military 6.2L diesel starters and alternators. He thought they went to Ft. Carson in Colorado Springs but was not sure.
So, if you don't have a rebuilder in your area, give these guys a call. At least they KNOW about the military versions, which some places don't. They are here in Denver.
Found the guy here in Denver who is supposed to do this type of work. His 'card' says "Best quality, Best Prices" and "R&R service available".
Contact info is AES
Automotive Exchange & Supply
303-937-1700
8 - 5 Mon - Fri
8 - 2 Saturday
Starters - Alternators - new quality clutch kits
I talked face to face with one of the employees and he said they had 'a contract' to rebuild military 6.2L diesel starters and alternators. He thought they went to Ft. Carson in Colorado Springs but was not sure.
So, if you don't have a rebuilder in your area, give these guys a call. At least they KNOW about the military versions, which some places don't. They are here in Denver.