New O rings on HH ... truck no start.

[oddshot]

OK … I’m stumped. And after 3 days, more than a little frustrated.



6 weeks ago my Deuce was running great, except it was “making oil” in the oil pan. My wife had her hip replaced … so I let it sit for the 6 weeks. I was coming up on my annual maintenance so I figured I just do everything at one time once Jan was on the mend.



Monday, I drained the tank, flushed it and filled it with fresh diesel and changed the fuel filters. I do this every year because I run a wmo mix.

I pulled the HH (yes, I lined up the red line and no, neither the clip nor the button had fallen off) and found that one of the O-rings had been partially trapped under the stamped steel cover and the little o-ring on the shut-off shaft was all dried out. Given I use wmo, I was surprised that the inside of the hh was so clean. Since I saw the damage on the o-rings … I figured, “GREAT. I’ll have this done by lunch time.”


Wrong.


I did note that the plunger sleeve (that little rectangle bit of steel that has the slot and dimple in it) did not fall of its own weight maybe 1 time out of 10 tries so I polished the shaft with some 600 grit compound followed by 1,000 grit paper. Now it slides up and down of its own weight every time.

I assembled everything, making sure that the button didn’t come off AND that I caught that little plunger sleeve pin (on the fuel control lever) properly into the plunger sleeve. Everything in the shut off seems to be working correctly. The control lever is at 7:00 O’clock. If I push that assembly towards the firewall, it springs right back to the 7:00 O’clock position.


I turned on the electricity, made certain that the lift pump was pumping and returning fuel to the tank. I bled the filters, and got a stream of good clean diesel strong enough almost to pressure wash the engine. I took the air breather hose off and gave a bit of a spray of WD 40 into the intake and hit the button to start it up. … and it wouldn’t start. So I got my wife to play soldier B and let her crank it over while I gave it shots of WD40. Still no start. So I let her crank it while I cracked line at the fuel injectors to make sure I was getting delivery. Yes, I am getting fuel when it cranks.


So, I gave it just a *little* taste of ether, and it would start … but then die when the ether burned off. I don’t like to put ether in a diesel … so I switched back to WD40 … and couldn’t get it to pop.


So, I pulled the center plug out of the HH and had soldier B crank the engine so I could check plunger operation. It’s good. I also get fuel (lots and lots of fuel) if the lift pump is on and that plug is out.


So I called it a day and figured I’d give it a go on Tuesday.


I repeated everything you see above, except for changing fuel and filters) TWICE on Tuesday. No start.


I repeated everything you see above once today. The whole enchilada. And still no start.


For what it’s worth, I cleaned and checked the pop pressure on the injectors in November and the truck ran fine after.

Yes, I have TM 9-2910-226-34 and read it before I began ... and about 20 times since.

Well ... I'm stumped ... any guesses?

 

[oddshot]

I haven't checked the pressures yet, but based on what I'm seeing when I open the lines ... I don't think my problems lie there.

I do have a spare set of injectors and a couple extra steel lines. I'm thinking over the weekend I might hook up an injector and hold a can under it to see if if its building enough pressure to pop.

I read that silicone spray is a safe alternative to ether. Maybe I'll pick up a can (or two) and give it a bit of that.

 

[oddshot]

It occurs to me that I have had a similar problem about a year ago.

I ran out of fuel once about a year ago ... and it took FOREVER to get the truck to start. But once it did ... all was well with the world.

 

[M35A2-AZ]

I just had my pump rebuilt and got her installed, I bled the fuel lines and cracked open the injector lines and cranked it two or three times to get fuel coming out all the injector lines. Closed the lines and cracked it for about 3secs and it started.

You may need to crack all the injector lines and crank tell a lot of fuel is coming out.
Good luck and hope you get her going.

 

[Jeepsinker]

Do you have a spare hydraulic head on hand?

 

[oddshot]

Do you have a spare hydraulic head on hand?

No. If I had, I would have put it on the truck the third time I took it all apart. Well, maybe the forth time ... I am kinda stubborn.

 

[Jeepsinker]

That is where I would start. Of course you may have something in your governor section fuc*ed and sticking.

 

[Woodsplinter]

It occurs to me that I have had a similar problem about a year ago.

I ran out of fuel once about a year ago ... and it took FOREVER to get the truck to start. But once it did ... all was well with the world.

I remember a thread started by Gimpy, I think, where the OP ran his deuce out of fuel and discovered that was death to the HH. Turning at high speed with no fuel to lubricate it ended badly.

Don't remember if he ever got it started or had to replace the HH. Perhaps your episode was the beginning of the end of your HH.

 

[rustystud]

I would try and bleed everyone of the injector lines at the injector. If it still will not fire and it will fire up with "ether" then your Hydraulic Head has gone bad. Using "brake cleaner" is better on a diesel then ether. Though either one is really not good.

 

[frank8003]

I remember a thread started by Gimpy, I think, where the OP ran his deuce out of fuel and discovered that was death to the HH.

and informative it is too ................
the thread is
Thread: More engine problems (Documentation of testing fuel system, failure of Hyd Head)


it is at
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?103129-More-engine-problems-(fuel-system)

 

[Floridianson]

If you believe you have done everything correct on the O ring replacement then I might try this. The lift pump should push out any air if left to run long enough. No need to crack injectors or anything else. Yes sometimes some have said that just a small amount of ether but I have not had that problem I just let the intank pump for maybe 4 min. and not be afraid to crank it over for a good 20 seconds. You might try taking off the shut down cover and while someone cranks her over you hold the control assembly in the full forward position. When and if she fires just let the control go and she should idle. You can apply or decrease fuel there and also shut her down by hand.
If you still have problems then I would say something else is wrong.

 

[oddshot]

and informative it is to................
the thread is
Thread: More engine problems (Documentation of testing fuel system, failure of Hyd Head)


it is at
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?103129-More-engine-problems-(fuel-system)

Before the job I read nearly every thing (manuals AND SS threads) I could find on replacing the o-rings . But I didn't come across this one in my search. Good thread ... lots of similarities.

I forgot to mention that I have NO smoke when attempting to start. The flapper on the exhaust jumps up and down when cranking ... but no smoke.


Also ... in my reading ... I find that most people report that their trucks fire up almost immediately after replacing the head. No drama, not much cranking, and not much help with starting fluids and such.

As I said, I ran the truck out of fuel about a year ago ... and it was a screaming bee itch to get it to start. Once it started ... it was fine. I didn't have any problems at all when I pulled, pop-tested and cleaned the injectors. Just put them back in and she started right up.

It really is kinda hard to believe. The parts on the inside of the hh are very clean, they don't even show any varnish ...its NOTHING like some of the pictures that have been posted on SS.

I might have to start looking for a replacement HH. Anybody got an idea where they might be found?

I did see one from China on Ebay, but the quality of the Chinese made parts I have to deal with is abysmal. Anybody have experience with these HH's?

 

[oddshot]

The lift pump should push out any air if left to run long enough. No need to crack injectors or anything else. Yes sometimes some have said that just a small amount of ether but I have not had that problem I just let the intank pump for maybe 4 min. and not be afraid to crank it over for a good 20 seconds. You might try taking off the shut down cover and while someone cranks her over you hold the control assembly in the full forward position. When and if she fires just let the control go and she should idle. You can apply or decrease fuel there and also shut her down by hand.
If you still have problems then I would say something else is wrong.

Thanks FLAson ... I gave that a try yesterday. I even tried moving the control assembly back and forth slowly to see if it makes a difference. No change.

But I did notice that the control assembly does NOT spring back to the 7:00 O'clock position when cranking. It actually is a little harder to move back and forth.

When I stop cranking ... everything is back to normal ... it just jumps back to 7:00 O'clock.


BTW ... based on what I read about a pump being out of time: http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showth...l-5-o-clock-position-when-cover-removed/page8

I am definitely going to check the timing. Based on how the truck had been running I don't think thats the problem ... but checking it is FREE. At least it will be off my mind.

 

[Floridianson]

Check out this thread sounds like his quill shaft is broken. Maybe you need to check you HH for spin.

 

[FloridaAKM]

That's the worst news yet, what does it take to repair a broken quill?

 

[patracy]

Before the job I read nearly every thing (manuals AND SS threads) I could find on replacing the o-rings . But I didn't come across this one in my search. Good thread ... lots of similarities.

I forgot to mention that I have NO smoke when attempting to start. The flapper on the exhaust jumps up and down when cranking ... but no smoke.


Also ... in my reading ... I find that most people report that their trucks fire up almost immediately after replacing the head. No drama, not much cranking, and not much help with starting fluids and such.

As I said, I ran the truck out of fuel about a year ago ... and it was a screaming bee itch to get it to start. Once it started ... it was fine. I didn't have any problems at all when I pulled, pop-tested and cleaned the injectors. Just put them back in and she started right up.

It really is kinda hard to believe. The parts on the inside of the hh are very clean, they don't even show any varnish ...its NOTHING like some of the pictures that have been posted on SS.

I might have to start looking for a replacement HH. Anybody got an idea where they might be found?

I did see one from China on Ebay, but the quality of the Chinese made parts I have to deal with is abysmal. Anybody have experience with these HH's?

Clean doesn't mean much. Mine looked ok except for a wave pattern on it. But that was enough to cause the HH to fail.

 

[Jeepsinker]

The Chinese made hydraulic heads work and last just fine. They are one Chinese product you shouldn't be afraid of.

 

[peashooter]

I thought I read somewhere on here last year that wd40 isn't flammable anymore and therefore of no use for a starting fluid? I havent tried lighting the stuff since I was a kid though so I don't know if this is true or not.

 

[goldneagle]

I was told to use gasoline on a rag on the mushroom intake. I know gas is flammable.

 

[rustystud]

I was told to use gasoline on a rag on the mushroom intake. I know gas is flammable.

NEVER use gas to help start a diesel engine ! Not unless you like bent connecting rods. Actually the same goes for ether. You can use a "small" amount of ether or brake clean. The operant word here is "small" .
When you "cleaned up" the parts with sandpaper, that caught my attention ! You should never have to sand any part in an injection pump. Like it has been said before, you can heat up a part with your hand and it should not go in. That is like .0001 clearances we're talking about. You can "polish" them with fine lapping cloth but not sandpaper. I would also check the quill shaft for turning. If you had a burr in there then it could have come from something breaking.