New O rings on HH ... truck no start.

[Floridianson]

Here is a pic of a broken plunger guide that shows the two cracks.

 

[oddshot]

Here is a pic of a broken plunger guide that shows the two cracks.

Thankyou.

Good photo for reference ... but mines OK.

 

[oddshot]

When you "cleaned up" the parts with sandpaper, that caught my attention ! You should never have to sand any part in an injection pump. Like it has been said before, you can heat up a part with your hand and it should not go in. That is like .0001 clearances we're talking about. You can "polish" them with fine lapping cloth but not sandpaper. I would also check the quill shaft for turning. If you had a burr in there then it could have come from something breaking.

I didn't sand anything with sand paper.

I did note that the plunger sleeve (that little rectangle bit of steel that has the slot and dimple in it) did not fall of its own weight maybe 1 time out of 10 tries so I polished the shaft with some 600 grit compound followed by 1,000 grit paper. Now it slides up and down of its own weight every time.

I used 600 grit aluminum oxide lapping compound on a bit of soft felt and followed it with a bit of 1000 grit emery paper.

As I explained that was just a very little stiff spot in the area that the plunger sleeve rides up and down. I was very careful not to go above that point, and to make certain that I didn't remove material. I also worked in steps ... and stopped once the plunder (lubed with a bit of diesel) fell every time of its own weight. I understand the need for the clearances involved. I never really saw or felt a burr of any type ... just a little bit of a tight spot that prevented the slide from falling off its own weight EVERY TIME as specified in the manual.


I have read threads on this topic wherein folks describe doing much much more that I have and being far more aggressive that I would have thought OK ... and they ended up just fine.

 

[peashooter]

For what its worth, As of a year ago John at TNJ Murray was selling the Asian made Hydraulic Heads for $300 shipped.... its not a listed/advertised price obviously but many of us have bought one from him for that price or close to it (he didn't always do the free shipping part). If you do need one, try sending him an email or giving him a call. He has sold thousands of them over the years. www.tnjmurray.com

 

[oddshot]

For what its worth, As of a year ago John at TNJ Murray was selling the Asian made Hydraulic Heads for $300 shipped.... its not a listed/advertised price obviously but many of us have bought one from him for that price or close to it (he didn't always do the free shipping part). If you do need one, try sending him an email or giving him a call. He has sold thousands of them over the years. www.tnjmurray.com

I really do appreciate the helpful suggestions and reminders of stuff I might have over looked or done wrong. I do have to apologize for the long posts ... I guess I'm just moving air so's I can clear up the fog of frustration.

After reading more HH related threads last evening, I have come up with a couple more things to try. I have decided that if nothing works out ... I will be ordering a new HH Monday morning. That being said, reflecting on all the trouble I had getting it to start when I ran out of fuel ... may have been on the way out for a while now. I'll probably order one just to put into spare parts inventory.

 

[oddshot]

I would also check the quill shaft for turning.

Check out this thread sounds like his quill shaft is broken. Maybe you need to check you HH for spin.

... So I got my wife to play soldier B and let her crank it over while I gave it shots of WD40. Still no start. So I let her crank it while I cracked line at the fuel injectors to make sure I was getting delivery. Yes, I am getting fuel when it cranks.

I would have thought the quill was OK if I could turn the engine by way of the jackshaft and use that method to align the red index on the gear. Further, I would have thought the quill was OK if I was getting fuel out of the injector lines when cranking.

anyoldways ... it is something to check (and labor is free) so I just had soldier B crank the engine while I observed the gear.

I can confirm that the gear is spinning when the engine is cranked.

 

[oddshot]

New News ...

I just came back from the autoparts store with a couple cans of Brake Clean.

The engine will start and run as long as I spray BC into the intake. When I stop spraying, the engine will continue running for a bit and then die.

If I pull out the hand throttle while cranking it seems to run a bit faster and a bit longer ... but still dies.

If I were to total the amount of time that the engine is running ... I would have to guess I've had it running about 60 seconds, maybe a bit more, total on Brake Clean.

During one of the times the truck was running, I cracked an injector line to make sure that fuel was coming out. It was.


This reminds me a lot of when I ran it out of fuel about a year ago ... as I said, it was really tough to get it started but once it did ... it ran fine.

Over the weekend I am going to try another injector and check the spray. I might even swap out the injectors ... but I really don't know why ... its just something else to try.

Anyoldways, I think I'm about to throw in the (shop) towel and whip out the check book.

 

[frank8003]

When you install the new HH let us know how it runs

 

[Floridianson]

I would just recheck everything you did that includes checking all timing marks. Sounds like you might be off. When the timing marks all line up the HH will be one tooth to the rear.

 

[frank8003]

He has sold thousands of them over the years. www.tnjmurray.com

He has sold thousands of them over the years

OK now you did it
Holy Toledo, there is not thousands of trucks out there that use these
How many hundreds of hours can I do for one HH?

Somebody please send me a dead HH and I fix.
There is only the rotating shaft and the sleeve.

Lets make those new parts.

 

[rustystud]

He has sold thousands of them over the years

OK now you did it
Holy Toledo, there is not thousands of trucks out there that use these
How many hundreds of hours can I do for one HH?

Somebody please send me a dead HH and I fix.
There is only the rotating shaft and the sleeve.

Lets make those new parts.

Actually you would be surprised at how many Deuce trucks are still being used around the world today. The major surplus sellers (like TNJmurray) sell around the world, not just here in the states. As far as fixing an injection pump, if you have the specialized machines (grinding and lapping) to make parts that have clearances of just .0001" then go for it. There are not that many machine shops around here that can do that kind of work and I live in the land of "Boeing". Also there is much more to a Hydraulic Head then a rotating shaft and sleeve. Apparently you have never looked at a manual for one yet.

 

[oddshot]

When you install the new HH let us know how it runs

We shall see what there is to be seen.

 

[oddshot]

As far as fixing an injection pump, if you have the specialized machines (grinding and lapping) to make parts that have clearances of just .0001" then go for it.

You also should consider finding or building a machine to test the HH when its rebuilt. Such a machine will have to provide fuel at the proper rate and pressure, spin the shaft AND move it up and down and, finally, measure the output pressure and volume at 6 ports.I have spent some time at a Bosch facility that has such machines. MANY of them. I asked what the cost of such machines were. All I got was a wide-opened-eyed, "A LOT".

There are not that many machine shops around here that can do that kind of work and I live in the land of "Boeing". Also there is much more to a Hydraulic Head then a rotating shaft and sleeve.

The difficulty is the clearance between the shaft and sleeve. Comparatively high pressures are required to pop the injectors open. If your clearance if off ... even by a little, little, VERY little bit you bleed pressure internally and there goes the ball game.

I've seen components of other types of fuel injection systems that operated with the same types of clearance requirements ... warm up regulators in Bosch K-Jet (CIS) gasoline fuel injection. We went through a TON of them back in the 70's-80's. I would open them up to check for wear ... or any thing that made them stop working. And there would be nothing apparent. But put a guage set on them and check warm-up pressures ... and sure enough, it was dead, and , at $200 to $300 per each, expensive and frustrating.

 

[rustystud]

You also should consider finding or building a machine to test the HH when its rebuilt. Such a machine will have to provide fuel at the proper rate and pressure, spin the shaft AND move it up and down and, finally, measure the output pressure and volume at 6 ports.I have spent some time at a Bosch facility that has such machines. MANY of them. I asked what the cost of such machines were. All I got was a wide-opened-eyed, "A LOT".





The difficulty is the clearance between the shaft and sleeve. Comparatively high pressures are required to pop the injectors open. If your clearance if off ... even by a little, little, VERY little bit you bleed pressure internally and there goes the ball game.

I've seen components of other types of fuel injection systems that operated with the same types of clearance requirements ... warm up regulators in Bosch K-Jet (CIS) gasoline fuel injection. We went through a TON of them back in the 70's-80's. I would open them up to check for wear ... or any thing that made them stop working. And there would be nothing apparent. But put a guage set on them and check warm-up pressures ... and sure enough, it was dead, and , at $200 to $300 per each, expensive and frustrating.

When you consider the amount of expertise and specialized equipment needed to build a injection pump and especially the "Hydraulic Head" it is quite staggering ! Then for being sold for the low amount of money that they are says a lot about modern society's mechanical abilities ! This could not have been built just a 100 years ago.

 

[peashooter]

He has sold thousands of them over the years

OK now you did it
Holy Toledo, there is not thousands of trucks out there that use these
.

John (TNJ) told me he has sold thousands of them to South Korea alone.

 

[welldigger]

When you consider the amount of expertise and specialized equipment needed to build a injection pump and especially the "Hydraulic Head" it is quite staggering ! Then for being sold for the low amount of money that they are says a lot about modern society's mechanical abilities ! This could not have been built just a 100 years ago.

You clearly haven't seen some of the 100 year old machine tools that can cut closer tolerances than a modern cnc machine.

 

[rustystud]

You clearly haven't seen some of the 100 year old machine tools that can cut closer tolerances than a modern cnc machine.

Actually I'm very familiar with old technology like "shapers" and "engine Lathes" and such. I worked in a machine shop for 10 years. I even built my own lathe and cast the parts myself some 40 years ago. What I'm saying is that technology was not able to mass produce such things as our Hydraulic Heads. It wasn't until the 1920s such machines became available. A one hundredth thousand inch tolerance is hard to maintain cut after cut. You have to factor in the wear of the cutting bit as it is working. This fact is proven by the introduction of the diesel engine as the predominate commercial engine after the war. The principal of the diesel was well known and there are many engines that where built before then, but to mass produce them like in todays market took something extra in the machining world.

 

[Woodsplinter]

Seems like this thread has run off the track!

 

[gimpyrobb]

Not really off track, just a progression of a trouble shooting conversation.

 

[Floridianson]

5 bucks says it's off time.