New Progress on Wisconsin Ex-Military Vehciles

[undysworld]

Fresh news from Wisconsin's front lines:

Word is out that the Dodge CUCV M-880 pickup trucks can now (again!) be registered in Wisconsin with regular Auto or Truck license plates! And unlike all other ex-military vehicles, if you're applying for regular plates (as opposed to "collector" or "historic military vehicle" plates), you do not need to provide photos of the vehicle.

I heard this from the gentleman who has been working on this, and I have not yet confirmed it with WisDOT (but he's reliable, IMHO).

Assuming this is true, it's a fantastic next step in restoring sanity to Wisconsin. With a new Governor, maybe we'll see the root problems disappear (WisDOT Atty. Paul Nilsen and WisDOT Sect. Frank Busalacchi). Stay tuned for further developments....

 

[lacoda56]

Wow! I never realized my M882 with the federal safety sticker intact on the door frame was included in the whole DMV fiasco/witch hunt on MV's. So, now maybe I'll be legal even though I didn't know I was illegal before?

 

[undysworld]

lacoda56,

You were effected, whether you knew about it or not. If your M882 was ex-military (duh), DMV would consider your vehicle to be restricted under the laws passed earlier this year. The details have been posted here previously.

What's new, is that M880s are not restricted any more because they have a label (U.S. DOT/NHTSA label certifying that the vehicle met applicable safety standards). If your M882 also has such a label, it should be eligible for normal, unrestricted, registration (Auto or Truck plates, as opposed to Collector or HMV plates). I'm curious what type of plates you are currently registered with?

Sorry if this is confusing. It's little wonder DMV is inconsistent. This new development is not going to have an effect (I think) on any milveh "collectors" (people who own/operate their trucks in a historical context), as they are likely to license the vehicle with the HMV plate and correctly drive it to parades, etc. This will effect people who want to license their milveh for daily-driver or utility functions (think farmers, loggers, etc.)

Bottom line is this: If your milveh has a NHTSA label certifying that it met safety standards, then that vehicle cannot be denied normal unrestricted operation by WisDOT. It can be licensed as the owner wishes to use it. The statue which WisDOT has used to restrict milveh operating rights [s.341.10(6), Wis. Stats.] cannot be applied to a vehicle which has this label.

 

[lacoda56]

Thanks for the explanation. I guess in the beginning of this whole deal, one of the DMV's arguments was the lack of the NHTSA inspection sticker on MV's. Since the Dodge series trucks had the sticker, I assumed they were exempt from the restrictions. I've had it registered and licensed with 8000# light truck plates for a year and a half now with no problems. Must have slipped thru the cracks.

I've followed this for the last year or so and actually did some letter writing which is really different for me. I recently got the "parade plates" for my M54, and while they don't allow unrestricted use, they're definately better than "offroad use only".

I would also like to add my thanks to you and all the others that sat thru and spoke at the hearings and meetings on this matter. Without your efforts, we'd have nothing.

Ron

 

[undysworld]

Thanks Ron. We did our best. Undoubtedly, this ain't over yet.

From what I've heard, there are several milvehs which were previously registered as "light truck" or "farm" which have received renewal notices recently. The DMV, like the Lord, moves in mysterious ways!

Regarding the M880s, I should add that I've seen nothing in writing from DMV yet. This is word of mouth, so far.

 

[poof]

lacoda56,

You were effected, whether you knew about it or not. If your M882 was ex-military (duh), DMV would consider your vehicle to be restricted under the laws passed earlier this year. The details have been posted here previously.

What's new, is that M880s are not restricted any more because they have a label (U.S. DOT/NHTSA label certifying that the vehicle met applicable safety standards). If your M882 also has such a label, it should be eligible for normal, unrestricted, registration (Auto or Truck plates, as opposed to Collector or HMV plates). I'm curious what type of plates you are currently registered with?

Sorry if this is confusing. It's little wonder DMV is inconsistent. This new development is not going to have an effect (I think) on any milveh "collectors" (people who own/operate their trucks in a historical context), as they are likely to license the vehicle with the HMV plate and correctly drive it to parades, etc. This will effect people who want to license their milveh for daily-driver or utility functions (think farmers, loggers, etc.)

Bottom line is this: If your milveh has a NHTSA label certifying that it met safety standards, then that vehicle cannot be denied normal unrestricted operation by WisDOT. It can be licensed as the owner wishes to use it. The statue which WisDOT has used to restrict milveh operating rights [s.341.10(6), Wis. Stats.] cannot be applied to a vehicle which has this label.

Good morning Paul..
I was woundering.. just how the powers that be are registering and tagging 1967 and early Former/ exmilitary vehicles... you know before the NHTSA label . was even around or existed..

Have a great day.
J.P.

 

[undysworld]

Poof,

From what I've heard, if the vehicle does not have the NHTSA label, DMV is not issuing registration for normal ("auto" or "truck") plates.

In fact, back in '07, WisDOT Sect. Frank Busalacchi defended DMV's refusal to issue title/registration on a 1943 Jeep - built a quarter century before the safety standards took effect!

Also interestingly, as per the federal regs, for vehicles in excess of 26,000# GVW there were no safety standards until 1975!

(That was a fact that escaped me during the previous fight. It was recently pointed out to me by the gentleman who's pushing this issue.)

So when DMV attempts to restrict the registration of those larger pre-'75 trucks, based on the safety standards, they are attempting to apply a law that doesn't even exist. Is that even legal?

Cheers,
Paul

 

[Bob H]

As the M880 series of trucks are no different than their civilian W200 counterparts ( with the exception of missing a license tag light and a few addon pieces) I can not see any way they could restrict them without doing the same to all 70's pick up trucks.
Unlike the Chevy CUCV's, the M880 vin is not any different than a civi W200 vin.

 

[vtwinpilot]

That sound's positive for a change, one thing at a time. Now giving exemption to the dodge and denial to the chevy's is still absurd, just not as absurd as the exemption given to the exotics. If anything the exemptions should have been common civilian conversion us vehicles first then exotic's considered later. Since some legislators responded with what seemed to be deliberate non-comprehension that we were discussing mv chevy's and not common civvy versions. A right minded judge and certainly a jury should find this as absurd as everyone I have discussed this with including a deputy who is also an elected official. I have said before I believe the state committed fraud for selling former public use chevy mv's with clear wi titles for road ready registration at a premium. Who would have bought these if they thought the state would yank the registiration retro-actively? They focused on the least supported group, so again they are applying the anal retention to classic cars/trucks. I smell conflict of interest with the stealth and deception used. They could not have done it without help. Wether some folk's were gung ho for property de-valuation or just drunk by all the handlers atta-boy back patting, or hoping for some greater benefit down the line, reaks to me. Here's to common sense winning in the end.

 

[undysworld]

Bob,

From my discussions with the gentleman concerned, I understood that the Dodge M880's have a NHTSA label, but lack the 17-digit VIN number. What you wrote sounds like the opposite - correct VIN but no label. So I'm confused. Can you verify the number of digits in your VIN for me? (I don't want the actual VIN, just the number of digits.) Also, does your truck have the NHTSA label? Thanks.


VTwin,

I'm curious what you consider an "exotic"?

not as absurd as the exemption given to the exotics.

A Pinzgauer??

Sorry if I'm touchy, but several folks have wrongly accused Pinzgauer owners of being responsible for the hassle WisDOT has given everybody. From my perspective, that couldn't be more wrong.

The cancellations/denials effected US vehicles, months (if not years) before any Pinzgauers were effected. Pinzgauers, like all US armed forces vehicles, were not required to have NHTSA labels, and consequently very few US vehicles have the labels. The "exemption" which allows Pinzgauers to be imported and operated on-road is specified in the US Code [Title 49, sec. 30112] and is honored by the US DOT/NHTSA and the US Customs. US military vehicles have a similar exemption [Title 49, sec. 571.7].

You're right, a right-minded judge would (and did) find that this is absurd. Some things only get corrected one step at a time.

Bottom line, WisDOT was applying laws that don't exist, and the Wis. Statute that they relied on was never meant to apply to Motor Vehicles - it was written to effect "mini-bikes, go-carts, and all-terrain vehicles".

Again, sorry if I'm touchy. But we all need to remain united to resist WisDOT's efforts to outlaw older vehicles. They've proven themselves to be unreasonable and unresponsive. The DOT employees responsible for this crap ought to lose their jobs.

 

[vtwinpilot]

When bringing this to other vehicle enthusuast's and looking at the list of exemptions that was allowed it makes little sense that the dodge & chevy's were not allowed. It would appear the DMV was ok with exemptions since the number's were very limited. Compared to just the standard dodge/chevy's which I'm sure still have high numbers in use. It may be the dodge is ok now because it is gas, since they seem to have a hate on for diesel. After looking up the vin designation the 5th digit on the gm indicates line/chassis which would make sense the mfg. since they certainly have extra expense attached to them. The optional info I have list's the diesel available in all 50 states for the blazer, that suprised me. No offense to anyone sticking up for there own property but in hindsite you can see they broke everyone down to their own personal interest's and took away everything they could. So it should have been an all out united front from the beginging. Since they were spanked in court , with the Pinz. I am suprised they caved in and did not stick to the usual stubborn retribution. I just cannot swallow the fact that exemptions were allowed for let's call them "less common" vehicles first instead of common civilian conversion's. We really should work on getting this totally backed down now that the guy who i.m.o.p was pushing this crap is finally on the way out ( I won't miss Vilhelm Klink anymore than an 8 year case of bleeding hemroids)

 

[undysworld]

Vtwin,

I fully agree that it makes NO sense that all civilian-based milvehs weren't included. All I can say is, you weren't there, I was. I fought like he!! for normal use for all milvehs, and that was how my bill was originally written.

It was not supported by the majority of the milveh collector clubs in the state, and that lack was what led to the bill getting narrowed. Take that up with the collectors. I have nothing against their interests. I'm glad they can now register their trucks for parades and such. But most did not support those of us who want to use our trucks for normal uses.

You are correct that it should have been an all-out united front from the beginning. Sorry if you have a hard time swallowing the fact that Pinzgauers got included, but frankly, I worked at it harder than the others. I got what I worked for.

The point of this thread is that we have now managed to "add" M880s to the group of ex-military vehicles which can now be registered in Wisconsin for non-restricted use!. It seems entirely possible that the Chevy and other models will be added in the future. This is a time to work together, and not be bickering about what did or didn't get done in the past.

I don't know whether this all came from Gov. Doyle's office or not. I have real good reason to believe that it went all the way to DOT Sect. Frank Busalacchi. I'm guessing we'll never know. Let's hope for a change in things this next year.

 

[Bob H]

Bob,

From my discussions with the gentleman concerned, I understood that the Dodge M880's have a NHTSA label, but lack the 17-digit VIN number. What you wrote sounds like the opposite - correct VIN but no label. So I'm confused. Can you verify the number of digits in your VIN for me? (I don't want the actual VIN, just the number of digits.) Also, does your truck have the NHTSA label? Thanks.

Standard 1977 W200 dodge pickup truck vin
W24BE7S###### 13 digits
M88X pickup vin
W24BE7S######
Chrysler did not switch to a 17 digit vin until 1981

Standard 1977 W200 cab & chassis vin
W21BE7S######
M886 vin
W21BE7S######

http://oldmopar.com/72-79DodgeTrucks/Info.html

These all have the Warren, Mi assembly code
All the M88X / M89X trucks were built in the Warren Truck Assembly plant as were many civilian pickups. and still are today.

Don't know about the NHTSA label, have to try to look in the daylight. Regardless if label is present or not, they are no different than the trucks sold to public.
So WisDOT had no way to differentiate between them.

 

[vtwinpilot]

Since I found out they were sneaking in the back door late last year I did what I could I wrote letters and made calls. I am still irked at the fact that I was appeased with response's that the law "should" not apply to the CUCV.......I did not think it possible I could make it, but I was there that day with all the other cycle enthusiast's lobbying on behalf of that interest. In hindsite I should have drove myself, I did not expect to have the day off and rode the group bus down. Naturally it ran late and did not make it to the hearing (this was the one in Feburary) Had alot to do that day and did include this issue with my agenda. Still unlikely that I will have that option in the coming year. Hope are new officials will help now. This issue is not unlike many that have cropped up concerning outdoor sporting interest's. The organized sporting groups are appeased or backed down out of concern of further restrictions. Making waves is frowned upon and chastised by the state, they then leverage the interest's against one another until they achieve the chosen outcome, something like the rule of 3's using a facilitator. Wish this issue could be top priority for me, if I could scratch up the resources I'd throw and attorney at it.

 

[undysworld]

Bob,

Thanks for the data. According to DMV employee testimony during my appeal, their computer can only accommodate a 17-digit VIN. Otherwise, the computer throws up red flags etc. I think that's their first clue to differentiate things. But it could also be from an SF97 submission, in the case of a newly surplus'ed vehicle. Or owner identification as exmil.

I'll be curious whether you have NHTSA labels on them.

VTwin,

Sorry, I didn't mean to insinuate that you hadn't participated. (But I guess that's what I wrote.) Thank you, and all the others, who did make their opinions known.

Making waves is frowned upon

You're right, but sometimes you've got to splash about. WisDOT was way out of line.

 

[Bob H]

Bob,

Thanks for the data. According to DMV employee testimony during my appeal, their computer can only accommodate a 17-digit VIN. Otherwise, the computer throws up red flags etc. I think that's their first clue to differentiate things. But it could also be from an SF97 submission, in the case of a newly surplus'ed vehicle. Or owner identification as exmil.

I'll be curious whether you have NHTSA labels on them.

There is a sticker on my M880 that lists GVWR and has a statement on it that this vehicle conforms to Fed regs at time of manufacture. I don't know if that is the "NHTSA" sticker.

I'm wondering how WisDot registers any pre 1981 vehicle at all, if they need a 17 digit vin

 

[undysworld]

Bob,

Thanks a lot! Yes, that's the "NHTSA label". THAT'S what this whole stink has been about!!

From what I understand, if a vehicle has a 17-digit VIN, DMV's computer automatically recognizes the vehicle as compliant with FMVSS (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards). If it doesn't have the 17-digit VIN, then they actually need to think. The answer doesn't just poop out of their computer automatically. They don't want to have to work that hard.

Look, WisDOT has been capable of issuing title and registration for milvehs in Wisconsin for decades. Computer or no, they can still do it. They simply don't wanna.

 

[vtwinpilot]

Mine does have the door sticker and I can see where they would be lost or ripped off for the heck of it. That tell's me they all came with one. Time to pressure the new legislator's to consider the over-bearing officials for budgetary downsizing for breaching public trust.

 

[Johnn Bravo]

If anyone has interest.
I'm not sure who I talked to, D.O.T or D.M.V, but they won't give me back the title to my Blazer, that is without changing the title to say that it is a MV. They further went on to explain that in 2 months they will be sending out letters demanding you turn your title in so they can change it.
They were also so kind to inform, that if you have any other plates on an MV and get pulled over the cop will take the plates from you right away. Also said that they will catch you sooner or later.

Thought I would also throw in, that if you do have different plates on other then the MV plates, and then a cop does take them away from you, you are then unregistered. I'm sure they would be glad to give you a $263 ticket for that too.

 

[Wolf.Dose]

Sorry guys,
withoput reading me though all of the post, at least those I did read, I found out that there are some problems.
First of all, the Form 97 (some call it SF97, which also might be correct, depending on the point of view of the officials): This form is also required here in Germany to register any ex US-MV. The only problem is: Is this vehicle surplus before 1997 you do not have this form. We here have the custom declaration and therefore easily can argue: This vehicle was surplus before Form 97. They accept.
Second: 17 digid VIN: No vehicle of this world has a 17 duged serial number if build before 1980. MY change 1980 first introduced according to some worldwide requirements to have a 17 didged serial number. Howerver, 1980 build vehicles did not all have these 17 didgets. But from 1981, all did! Except ag tractors, trucks, working mashines. The requirements were only for PASSENGER CARS. By that time most of the manufacturers changed to the 17 didgets. So even Wisconsin has to reqognize, that a 17 didget VIn can not be expected on regular bases before 1980, better before 1981. Before that the VIN was worldwide limited to 14 didgets.
Sorry, I forgot the Jimmy from WWII. The Deuce had a VIN up to 19 didgets, depending on beeing with or without winch, axle type and so forth.
A friend of mine owns a Air Borne Jimmy tipper with a 19 didget VIN, which is 100 % original. What Wisconsin would say to that? Impossible?!?
Government ignorants knowing nothing about history!
I think, if you have the literature to prove the correctness of your VIN, they will not make some problems, if, ask for the superior of these bodies!
Wolf