Newbie needs some transmission repair advice, please

[gringeltaube]

While stopped with engine idling and clutch depressed, if you can put it in any gear with no grinding but then it does grind when truck is moving, that means that the synchros aren't doing their job.

Your tranny looks very nice, indeed. It must have been refurbished, not too long ago. Could it be that they used some elcheapo synchros? And that these only worked for a short time? (There is an easy way to test them, but that is on the work bench, with all parts pulled and clean.)

It may be a computer thing or even an optical effect just in that one picture, but the color of those brass collars seems suspiciously reddish to me; not the typical yellow-gold tone we normally get to see. Compare to the synchros shown below which are NOS original Dana-Spicer parts (from the good old days...).

Shoot some more pics, maybe under different light, and also try to find any markings/stamping on them to eventually confirm.

 

[Mullaney]

So....I drained the 80-90 weight that was in the transmission and put it through a coffee filter and fine screen. Then swept it with a super magnet, and pulled sludge from the bottom of the case through the drain hole with my finger. Looked at all residue in the sun, on a white background. See photos. Bottom line: zero evidence of any shavings or visible-size metal at all, other than what I would call gray dust or pumice. Just for fun (and to make 50% of you happy), I filled the case with ND SAE 30 weight, put the cover back on and just now drove it. Whie I still could not get it INTO gear while in motion, I now could get it SMOOTHLY OUT of gear every time while in motion. This is a change. No idea why. I tried shifting OUT of gear without the clutch (on the advice of a friend), and it would not go out of gear without the clutch whether moving or idle. I tried all 5+R gears, and they all go in while stopped easily, and they are engaged perfectly, and try to move the Deuce when I lift the clutch -- all normal. The last thing I did was try to put it back INTO 2nd gear as I coasted into my garage in Neutral, and at about 2 mph, with the clutch in, it ground a little bit, and went into second gear. So, the Deuce doesn't have to be EXACTLY stopped, but it did grind (the synchros?) as I pushed it with low-medium effort into second that last time.

I took photos of the top plate and it looks normal without visible wear, and no cracks or damage.

I have new 80-90, but for now, will leave the 30 in there.....

Help! Not sure what else to try. Thanks to everyone who is helping me through this....

Hi Eracer46,

I kinda agree with @gringeltaube about the syncros. Your transmission definitely looks good in the pictures except the odd color brass. The oil captures you did don't appear to indicate anything bad that I could see.

As I was reading and looking at the nice pretty bright brass in "G's" post - I wondered: By chance did you hook up to something heavy and drag it? (abnormal strain on the clutch) Seems like a stupid question - but are you fully depressing the clutch going down the road? Obviously you are when you take off in first gear - did your seat slip back - or is there some "abnormal play" in the clutch peddle? There should be maybe a half inch at the very top. After that, you should be mashing the springs on the (clutch) pressure plate... Maybe a better question: Is there more play in the clutch peddle than there used to be?

Don't be offended, but throw a pillow behind you behind your lower back (down low) and run down the road - and see if anything changes. Might also be worth opening the inspection plate on the bottom of the bellhousing. Look up inside there. You should be able to see the throw-out bearing. The symptoms you described was "it was good" and then "it wasn't good". Syncros generally don't just quit overnight. Neither do clutch plates and throw-out bearings, but clutches operate under spring pressure. Your left foot disengages the transmission from the engine by way of the clutch and if it isn't fully disengaging that might be contributing to the problem you have.

Inspection plate is light weight held on with about 4 or 6 bolts. Might be worth a look. Cheap and easy. While you are there, on the drivers side - the "fork" that the throw-out bearing rides on is abour half way up the bellhousing. Look at the linkage there. Is it loose? Bent maybe? Anything odd?

 

[Eracer46]

While stopped with engine idling and clutch depressed, if you can put it in any gear with no grinding but then it does grind when truck is moving, that means that the synchros aren't doing their job.

Your tranny looks very nice, indeed. It must have been refurbished, not too long ago. Could it be that they used some elcheapo synchros? And that these only worked for a short time? (There is an easy way to test them, but that is on the work bench, with all parts pulled and clean.)

It may be a computer thing or even an optical effect just in that one picture, but the color of those brass collars seems suspiciously reddish to me; not the typical yellow-gold tone we normally get to see. Compare to the synchros shown below which are NOS original Dana-Spicer parts (from the good old days...).

Shoot some more pics, maybe under different light, and also try to find any markings/stamping on them to eventually confirm.

Thanks again. I will do as you suggest, tomorrow, and post some photos. My recollection is that my synchros DO HAVE some reddish tint compared to your photo. But let me take another look. I will inspect them closely and send photos of any markings.

 

[Eracer46]

Hi Eracer46,

I kinda agree with @gringeltaube about the syncros. Your transmission definitely looks good in the pictures except the odd color brass. The oil captures you did don't appear to indicate anything bad that I could see.

As I was reading and looking at the nice pretty bright brass in "G's" post - I wondered: By chance did you hook up to something heavy and drag it? (abnormal strain on the clutch) Seems like a stupid question - but are you fully depressing the clutch going down the road? Obviously you are when you take off in first gear - did your seat slip back - or is there some "abnormal play" in the clutch peddle? There should be maybe a half inch at the very top. After that, you should be mashing the springs on the (clutch) pressure plate... Maybe a better question: Is there more play in the clutch peddle than there used to be?

Don't be offended, but throw a pillow behind you behind your lower back (down low) and run down the road - and see if anything changes. Might also be worth opening the inspection plate on the bottom of the bellhousing. Look up inside there. You should be able to see the throw-out bearing. The symptoms you described was "it was good" and then "it wasn't good". Syncros generally don't just quit overnight. Neither do clutch plates and throw-out bearings, but clutches operate under spring pressure. Your left foot disengages the transmission from the engine by way of the clutch and if it isn't fully disengaging that might be contributing to the problem you have.

Inspection plate is light weight held on with about 4 or 6 bolts. Might be worth a look. Cheap and easy. While you are there, on the drivers side - the "fork" that the throw-out bearing rides on is abour half way up the bellhousing. Look at the linkage there. Is it loose? Bent maybe? Anything odd?

Thanks for the suggestions. I will drive her again in the morning and make doubly sure the clutch is all the way depressed. I wasn’t consciously thinking about it, so who knows? I will also pull that inspection plate. Getting to know the truck is a good thing. Thank you again.

 

[Eracer46]

Thanks for the suggestions. I will drive her again in the morning and make doubly sure the clutch is all the way depressed. I wasn’t consciously thinking about it, so who knows? I will also pull that inspection plate. Getting to know the truck is a good thing. Thank you again.

....and I have not pulled anything heavy, but this is a 1966 M35, and was a pasture survivor, and used as a mudder there before I saved her, so it is quite possible she pulled loads within the last few years, I just don’t know. But maybe the synchros can tell us their story.......

 

[Eracer46]

....and I have not pulled anything heavy, but this is a 1966 M35, and was a pasture survivor, and used as a mudder there before I saved her, so it is quite possible she pulled loads within the last few years, I just don’t know. But maybe the synchros can tell us their story.......

I drove her in 1, 2, 3 and 4th gears today, but only could shift when stopped. And today, it went back to sometimes not allowing me this time to get OUT of 2nd gear, even when stopped and the clutch pushed to the floor. All other gears were accessible except 2nd gear -- it was the bad actor that would not let me come out of 2nd or into second without going into 3rd or another gear, gently lifting the clutch, then trying 2nd again. In my mind that helps align the synchros, but who knows. It seems to help 2nd. I energetically drove her for an hour in the pasture (most fun in a long time in the Deuce...!) and then into the shop and removed the top plate. Lots of photos attached. Bottom line -- ALL of the synchros are definitely reddish-colored. They are not and were not ever yellow as in the photo that was sent. I gently steel-wooled a small place as seen in the photo (and caught all the stuff coming off) to check the under-lying color and it is about as COPPER colored as you can get. Maybe bronze or rose-gold, but not yellow. I inspected the synchros as best as possible, and could see no markings whatsoever. I could, however, only see about 30% of their surfaces.

In the photos, I took some close-ups of a few areas of obvious wear. Also, if you see my fingers in the photo, look at the next photo, and it will tell you how much TRAVEL that piece has. I don't know when transmission parts movement becomes SLOP.

I understand that all synchros wouldn't go bad at the same moment in time -- but this truck will not shift into any gear while in motion with clutch to the floor. I did confirm that I am always pushing the clutch to the floor. On that topic, I have about 2 inches of travel from the floor to the beginning of engagement, and then maybe 3 inches more of travel as the clutch fully engages somewhere in that travel. We race cars with heavy clutches, and this clutch seems to be functioning perfectly. Seems to be in the gearbox.

My SWAG is one or more synchros are bad, but they dont all go bad at once, and they do operate independently, don't they?

THANK YOU. I know we will figure this out.

....and I have not pulled anything heavy, but this is a 1966 M35, and was a pasture survivor, and used as a mudder there before I saved her, so it is quite possible she pulled loads within the last few years, I just don’t know. But maybe the synchros can tell us their story.......

I drove her in 1, 2, 3 and 4th gears today, but only could shift when stopped. And today, it went back to sometimes not allowing me this time to get OUT of 2nd gear, even when stopped and the clutch pushed to the floor. All other gears were accessible except 2nd gear -- it was the bad actor that would not let me come out of 2nd or into second without going into 3rd or another gear, gently lifting the clutch, then trying 2nd again. In my mind that helps align the synchros, but who knows. It seems to help 2nd. I energetically drove her for an hour in the pasture (most fun in a long time in the Deuce...!) and then into the shop and removed the top plate. Lots of photos attached. Bottom line -- ALL of the synchros are definitely reddish-colored. They are not and were not ever yellow as in the photo that was sent. I gently steel-wooled a small place as seen in the photo (and caught all the stuff coming off) to check the under-lying color and it is about as COPPER colored as you can get. Maybe bronze or rose-gold, but not yellow. I inspected the synchros as best as possible, and could see no markings whatsoever. I could, however, only see about 30% of their surfaces.



In the photos, I took some close-ups of a few areas of obvious wear. Also, if you see my fingers in the photo, look at the next photo, and it will tell you how much TRAVEL that piece has. I don't know when transmission parts movement becomes SLOP.



I understand that all synchros wouldn't go bad at the same moment in time -- but this truck will not shift into any gear while in motion with clutch to the floor. I did confirm that I am always pushing the clutch to the floor. On that topic, I have about 2 inches of travel from the floor to the beginning of engagement, and then maybe 3 inches more of travel as the clutch fully engages somewhere in that travel. We race cars with heavy clutches, and this clutch seems to be functioning perfectly. Seems to be in the gearbox.



My SWAG is one or more synchros are bad, but they dont all go bad at once, and they do operate independently, don't they?



THANK YOU. I know we will figure this out. Will post photos in the next Reply — having a technical issue.

 

[Eracer46]

I drove her in 1, 2, 3 and 4th gears today, but only could shift when stopped. And today, it went back to sometimes not allowing me this time to get OUT of 2nd gear, even when stopped and the clutch pushed to the floor. All other gears were accessible except 2nd gear -- it was the bad actor that would not let me come out of 2nd or into second without going into 3rd or another gear, gently lifting the clutch, then trying 2nd again. In my mind that helps align the synchros, but who knows. It seems to help 2nd. I energetically drove her for an hour in the pasture (most fun in a long time in the Deuce...!) and then into the shop and removed the top plate. Lots of photos attached. Bottom line -- ALL of the synchros are definitely reddish-colored. They are not and were not ever yellow as in the photo that was sent. I gently steel-wooled a small place as seen in the photo (and caught all the stuff coming off) to check the under-lying color and it is about as COPPER colored as you can get. Maybe bronze or rose-gold, but not yellow. I inspected the synchros as best as possible, and could see no markings whatsoever. I could, however, only see about 30% of their surfaces.

In the photos, I took some close-ups of a few areas of obvious wear. Also, if you see my fingers in the photo, look at the next photo, and it will tell you how much TRAVEL that piece has. I don't know when transmission parts movement becomes SLOP.

I understand that all synchros wouldn't go bad at the same moment in time -- but this truck will not shift into any gear while in motion with clutch to the floor. I did confirm that I am always pushing the clutch to the floor. On that topic, I have about 2 inches of travel from the floor to the beginning of engagement, and then maybe 3 inches more of travel as the clutch fully engages somewhere in that travel. We race cars with heavy clutches, and this clutch seems to be functioning perfectly. Seems to be in the gearbox.

My SWAG is one or more synchros are bad, but they dont all go bad at once, and they do operate independently, don't they?

THANK YOU. I know we will figure this out.

 

[Eracer46]

I drove her in 1, 2, 3 and 4th gears today, but only could shift when stopped. And today, it went back to sometimes not allowing me this time to get OUT of 2nd gear, even when stopped and the clutch pushed to the floor. All other gears were accessible except 2nd gear -- it was the bad actor that would not let me come out of 2nd or into second without going into 3rd or another gear, gently lifting the clutch, then trying 2nd again. In my mind that helps align the synchros, but who knows. It seems to help 2nd. I energetically drove her for an hour in the pasture (most fun in a long time in the Deuce...!) and then into the shop and removed the top plate. Lots of photos attached. Bottom line -- ALL of the synchros are definitely reddish-colored. They are not and were not ever yellow as in the photo that was sent. I gently steel-wooled a small place as seen in the photo (and caught all the stuff coming off) to check the under-lying color and it is about as COPPER colored as you can get. Maybe bronze or rose-gold, but not yellow. I inspected the synchros as best as possible, and could see no markings whatsoever. I could, however, only see about 30% of their surfaces.

In the photos, I took some close-ups of a few areas of obvious wear. Also, if you see my fingers in the photo, look at the next photo, and it will tell you how much TRAVEL that piece has. I don't know when transmission parts movement becomes SLOP.

I understand that all synchros wouldn't go bad at the same moment in time -- but this truck will not shift into any gear while in motion with clutch to the floor. I did confirm that I am always pushing the clutch to the floor. On that topic, I have about 2 inches of travel from the floor to the beginning of engagement, and then maybe 3 inches more of travel as the clutch fully engages somewhere in that travel. We race cars with heavy clutches, and this clutch seems to be functioning perfectly. Seems to be in the gearbox.

My SWAG is one or more synchros are bad, but they dont all go bad at once, and they do operate independently, don't they?

THANK YOU. I know we will figure this out.

I drove her in 1, 2, 3 and 4th gears today, but only could shift when stopped. And today, it went back to sometimes not allowing me this time to get OUT of 2nd gear, even when stopped and the clutch pushed to the floor. All other gears were accessible except 2nd gear -- it was the bad actor that would not let me come out of 2nd or into second without going into 3rd or another gear, gently lifting the clutch, then trying 2nd again. In my mind that helps align the synchros, but who knows. It seems to help 2nd. I energetically drove her for an hour in the pasture (most fun in a long time in the Deuce...!) and then into the shop and removed the top plate. Lots of photos attached. Bottom line -- ALL of the synchros are definitely reddish-colored. They are not and were not ever yellow as in the photo that was sent. I gently steel-wooled a small place as seen in the photo (and caught all the stuff coming off) to check the under-lying color and it is about as COPPER colored as you can get. Maybe bronze or rose-gold, but not yellow. I inspected the synchros as best as possible, and could see no markings whatsoever. I could, however, only see about 30% of their surfaces.



In the photos, I took some close-ups of a few areas of obvious wear. Also, if you see my fingers in the photo, look at the next photo, and it will tell you how much TRAVEL that piece has. I don't know when transmission parts movement becomes SLOP.



I understand that all synchros wouldn't go bad at the same moment in time -- but this truck will not shift into any gear while in motion with clutch to the floor. I did confirm that I am always pushing the clutch to the floor. On that topic, I have about 2 inches of travel from the floor to the beginning of engagement, and then maybe 3 inches more of travel as the clutch fully engages somewhere in that travel. We race cars with heavy clutches, and this clutch seems to be functioning perfectly. Seems to be in the gearbox.



My SWAG is one or more synchros are bad, but they dont all go bad at once, and they do operate independently, don't they?



THANK YOU. I know we will figure this out. Will post photos in the next Reply — having a technical issue.

Here is the photo of the steel-wooled/buffed spot and the underlying synchro color....

 

[Welder1]

Is the clutch adjusted properly? The syncros have to match speeds for gears to change if it doesn't fully release it can aggravate the transmission.

 

[gringeltaube]

Is the clutch adjusted properly? The syncros have to match speeds for gears to change if it doesn't fully release it can aggravate the transmission.

I guess the clutch is OK. Otherwise you can't shift from neutral into 1st or rev without grinding gears. That is, with truck stopped and engine idling.

@Eracer46: It is clear that those are aftermarket synchros. But that doesn't mean they don't work at all. At least there are no signs of wear.

There is one more thing that you can test with the top removed (engine off, clutch on, tranny and transfer in N): 1) Make sure the mainshaft (transmission output) turns freely. 2) You should be able to engage any of both shift collars with bare hands, only. And right before it snaps into gear there should be significant resistance (at the very least!) to turn the output shaft. (Have Soldier B assist you with that.)

Next step would be pulling the mainshaft and fully disassemble it to inspect all parts; especially the 2nd-3rd synchro hub and the keys underneath it.
BTW, the MS can be removed without pulling the whole transmission.

 

[Eracer46]

I guess the clutch is OK. Otherwise you can't shift from neutral into 1st or rev without grinding gears. That is, with truck stopped and engine idling.

@Eracer46: It is clear that those are aftermarket synchros. But that doesn't mean they don't work at all. At least there are no signs of wear.

There is one more thing that you can test with the top removed (engine off, clutch on, tranny and transfer in N): 1) Make sure the mainshaft (transmission output) turns freely. 2) You should be able to engage any of both shift collars with bare hands, only. And right before it snaps into gear there should be significant resistance (at the very least!) to turn the output shaft. (Have Soldier B assist you with that.)

Next step would be pulling the mainshaft and fully disassemble it to inspect all parts; especially the 2nd-3rd synchro hub and the keys underneath it.
BTW, the MS can be removed without pulling the whole transmission.

Thank you Welder1. We will check the Main Shaft as you suggest today or tonight. I have a Master Mechanic buddy coming to visit. We will look for any extra play or misalignment, and perform the checks you outline, and report back. Thank you.

 

[Eracer46]

Last night, we checked in detail the operation of the top unit while in a vise. It worked as-expected, without binding or hanging-up anywhere. We then moved all parts associated witht the Main Shaft. While it was occasionally tough to move it into 3rd gear, it also worked as expected in all gears.

We are now trying to locate a donor or loaner Top Section, to drive it with that replacement part in-place, and see if we still have the shifting problem. At least we will then know if it is Top or Bottom. If the problem persists, we plan to remove the Main Shaft, disassemble, clean and inspect all parts on it, and then see what we find, and re-group.

Does this sound like a plan? If anyone has a spare TOP section, and you live near Austin or Houston, please let me know. We may have found one close-by, but won't know until tomorrow or so.... Thanks again.

 

[Barrman]

I should be able to get to my spares after 1800.

 

[Eracer46]

I should be able to get to my spares after 1800.

Thank you, sir! Please let me know if you find one!!

 

[Eracer46]

Thank you, sir! Please let me know if you find one!!

Thank you, Barrman! I have cleaned up your donor/test Top Section, and will finish it up in the morning, install it, and give her a drive at first light tomorrow. Will report back.

 

[Eracer46]

Thank you, Barrman! I have cleaned up your donor/test Top Section, and will finish it up in the morning, install it, and give her a drive at first light tomorrow. Will report back.

Installed Barrman's Top Section early this morning, and took her for a drive at first light. No change. Top section works perfectly, but the truck must be stopped in order to shift from any gear to any other gear. The Second Gear synchro is "sticky" meaning that it takes some coaxing, but always went in after going to another gear, slightly engaging the clutch, then going back and putting it into Second. No other gears were sticky (when stopped).

I have never taken a transmission apart, but it looks like I need to replace the copper-colored synchros (all of them). Does this sound like the logical next step? Can this Newbie do it with good instructions? Heck, I installed the Waterloo Power Steering Kit on a 1966 M35 converted gasser -- how hard can this be!!

Heading into the Hell Below.....! Thanks, everyone!

 

[Eracer46]

Installed Barrman's Top Section early this morning, and took her for a drive at first light. No change. Top section works perfectly, but the truck must be stopped in order to shift from any gear to any other gear. The Second Gear synchro is "sticky" meaning that it takes some coaxing, but always went in after going to another gear, slightly engaging the clutch, then going back and putting it into Second. No other gears were sticky (when stopped).

I have never taken a transmission apart, but it looks like I need to replace the copper-colored synchros (all of them). Does this sound like the logical next step? Can this Newbie do it with good instructions? Heck, I installed the Waterloo Power Steering Kit on a 1966 M35 converted gasser -- how hard can this be!!

Heading into the Hell Below.....! Thanks, everyone!

......or is now the time to buy a gently-used full transmission, and just swap it out? Which is the wiser choice? Thanks, folks, for sharing opinions......

 

[Barrman]

Darn.

 

[Eracer46]

Darn.

The good news is your Top Section is AWESOME, Barrman!

 

[gringeltaube]

Installed Barrman's Top Section early this morning, and took her for a drive at first light. No change.

Sure - and I knew it, but didn't want to discourage you...

Pulling the MS and disassembling it is not a problem if you have- or can borough a good lock ring pliers set and a (small) shop press. Eventually a bearing puller also, if the output bearing doesn't come off even after some heat-gun treatment.

If you bought a takeout transmission, chances are that you need to rebuild it anyway. Yours seems to be very low mileage, so I would try to fix what's wrong there, first, instead of spending money buying unknown, prob. worn-out parts.