No Fuel, Weak Spark - Here I Am Again.

[Baron3-6]

......and here I am again seeking advice from the forum

Fuel Pump:
First fuel pump, my original pump is dead as a result of modern fuel and drying out for a year (previous owner). I'd read on another forum that some had good luck with the Carter M847 (pic 4), which I got and installed. When I crank the engine, there is no suction felt on the intake side and only a minor sputtering can be felt on the out line.....I primed the glass globe full of gas, and same thing. This pump has a vertical arm vs. a horizontal one on the GI one. I think the problem may be not enough contact with the cam? (See picture 1 where I added the white paint)....tacking an 1/8" more steel on the top of the arm solve this? or am I pissing into the wind?

Weak Spark:
She's reading 25V all the way to the positive lead of the new coil - power is reaching this. New coil still Ohm's the same as out of the box, around 12.3 +/-. I got the "pointless" ignition set from M-Series rebuild and it installed in a snap...the ring that drops on the distributor shaft does have about a millimeter of play in it though. (See pic 2) I've pulled all the plugs, grounded, and watched them - weak spark some times blue, some orange. Just enough I was able to get her to cough a little with a long shot of ether. My one guess is that my original rotor and distributor cap is worn down so much the spark isn't jumping it. (Pic 3) Thoughts?

If anyone is in the Savannah, GA area and would like some beer money for an afternoon of tinkering on this thing, PM me...

 

[WarrenD]

Re: the Fuel pump, get a proper replacement. Places like Midwest Military or Vintage Power Wagons have OEM pumps (some NOS) that have been rebuilt with new rubber that will withstand the ethanol in the fuel. Get and use some marine fuel stabilizer for ethanol fuels, it will help. If after that you are still having fuel issues, check the pick up in the tank, the screen may be clogged. After all that is checked and verified good, you may want to consider an electric fuel pump, either to replace the mechanical one or as a booster. You could skip the first step and go straight to the electric pump, but I'd still be concerned about the flow from the tank.

 

[Baron3-6]

I have not visually checked the fuel tank pick-up yet, however I have blown the entire fuel line with about 20psi from my air compressor..... I have about 3 Gal of gas in the tank right now and am able to hear the air blowing into the tank. The shut-off valve below the radiator is on as well; whole line is clear. The Carter one is made as a stock replacement for the Chrysler 230 straight 6...I'm just wondering if I'm not priming it correctly, or the clearance is off.

 

[Squirt-Truck]

Check that wiring on the coil. This picture is just NOT right. One side of the coil has to be grounded and the other side powered. That is not what I am seeing in the picture.

 

[Baron3-6]

Check that wiring on the coil. This picture is just NOT right. One side of the coil has to be grounded and the other side powered. That is not what I am seeing in the picture.

Hmmm, I wired off the picture on the M-Series Rebuild page. Positive line (24V) from the ignition switch goes to the positive side of the coil. The positive line from the electronic ignition goes to the same post. Negative line from the electronic ignition goes to the negative post, which normally goes to the condenser and then the points? Might be missing a line?

 

[WarrenD]

I have not visually checked the fuel tank pick-up yet, however I have blown the entire fuel line with about 20psi from my air compressor..... I have about 3 Gal of gas in the tank right now and am able to hear the air blowing into the tank. The shut-off valve below the radiator is on as well; whole line is clear. The Carter one is made as a stock replacement for the Chrysler 230 straight 6...I'm just wondering if I'm not priming it correctly, or the clearance is off.

Just because air is getting into the tank doesn't mean gas is getting out. It likely is, but backflowing air can blow away sediment that returns and clogs when fuel flow is in the normal direction. Not saying that is the case, but it's a possibility. I think I'd put a 5 gal can of fresh gas (with the appropriate amount of stabilizer) in there to make sure the fuel level is high enough to get picked up. You never know how high the pickup sits from the tank bottom.

 

[ke6rwj]

just my 2 cents... i removed the fuel filter from inside the tank and added a filter BEFORE the electric pump. It just always seemed stupid to me to put the filter in the tank..

anyway its easier to change on the side of the road when your stuck and prevents having to reseal the tank all the time, especially since these are prone to overfilling and will leak like crazy if its not perfect.

regarding ethanol, the marine stabilizer will help, but the bottom line is that ethanol is hydroscopic and will absorb water from the air, and in Bama, its a problem.. nothing removes the water! if you dont drive it alot, and the fuel sits, id consider ethanol free fuel...

 

[Oldfart]

Variable spark (yellow then blue / short then long) is a sign of variable dwell. Could be distributor shaft bearing are worn and there is wobble which effectively changes gap/dwell. Could the exciter ring be loose enough to cause variations?

The in tank filter can bubble back into the tank with air pressure of 20psi, but might have enough resistance to inhibit flow to the pump. Fuel pump out puts are under 10 psi and the "suck" side will be less. It might be the filter even though you can blow air back into the tank. (Make sure the gas tank cap is not in the "fording" position. I found a problem with the return vent line being plugged and positive seal on the cap caused a vacuum in the tank.

 

[WarrenD]

......(Make sure the gas tank cap is not in the "fording" position. I found a problem with the return vent line being plugged and positive seal on the cap caused a vacuum in the tank.

Do all caps have a fording position and if so, how would I tell? I have a new cap that is on to the second detent, but so far I haven't had any issues, so either that isn't the fording position or my vent lines are clear?

 

[Oldfart]

Correct. The second detent is the sealed position. The vent line moves along the frame rail with the fuel line and makes its way under the generator, up the side of the block and across to the air horn between the air cleaner and the carb. It is a small line and you are better off leaving the tank cap in the first position for normal highway driving. ~~ Many times this line is removed from the air horn and sometimes capped off and sometimes just left open. As I said, I once found this line broken in the frame rail and mud wasps had filled both ends of the separation.

 

[Squirt-Truck]

Baron, Please post or PM the wiring diagram. Convince me......

 

[doghead]

I'm guessing these instructions are close.

http://www.pertronix.com/support/manuals/pdf/ignitor12vneg.pdf

 

[doghead]

And with a little serach-fu, I found this.

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/417911-post20.html

 

[Baron3-6]

Baron, Please post or PM the wiring diagram. Convince me......

I got a very nice email from Charles at M-Series Rebuild....I have it wired correctly. He suggested a few wraps of electrical tape to tighten up the ring. Also, the 10 Gau wire I'd used to re-wire from the distributor power socket to the coil creates way too much resistance. Charles suggested using 14 Gau wire and re-wiring all the way to the ignition switch, cutting out the filter and any of the old connections that may have gone bad. I'm in the process of doing this now.....as well as removing the fuel tank filter, etc, etc. The info on the tank being sealed is much appreciated Oldfart. But, as we all know, the real world seems to always get in the way....in my case its the real army haha, imagine that. I will post as things develop. Thanks guys.

BTW, anyone got a Napa part # or an over the counter connector that will work in place of the old GI female-female connectors? Or a male end that can be crimped down?

 

[Baron3-6]

Ok, so tonight I installed a new distributor cap, rotor, and re-wired a new line directly from the coil to the ignition switch, as suggested. The distributor is 90% rebuilt.

Now, for what I intend to do for the fuel system this weekend before I attempt another start up.
1. Install the civilian fuel pump...I figure if the cam is touching it enough to wear 1/4" finish off, its pumping. If not, I'll be getting the rebuild kit for the GI one.
2. Prime the pump bowl, carb bowl, and the fuel lines: Make sure the tank cap doesn't make a vacuum
3. Pull the fuel tank filter out and remove it permanently (already have an in-line filter at the firewall)
4. Add a couple for gallons of fuel and lead substitute.
5. Put a little Marvel mystery oil in the plug holes and crank her a few with the power off.
6. A LOOOONNNNGGGG shot of ether.

SO THE QUESTIONS ARE:

A. How has everyone else "removed" the fuel tank filter??? Do I need anything like a section of steel line, etc, to replace it? (see pic from TM)

B. Whats the best way to prime the Carb bowl? I have not been having any luck with the vent lines so far.

Thanks!!

 

[Oldfart]

The in tank fuel filter is held in place by a machine screw (approx. 1/8 inch diamater) that pulls a bottom plate up against the filter screen pressing the filter screen to a top plate attached to the pickup tube. If you unbolt the filter and remove it, the pick up tube is in the same position and needs no adjustment.

 

[Baron3-6]

Pulled the top of my fuel tank last night and someone had already done my work for me. Tank filter had been removed and just the pick-up remained. Inside of the tank didn't look too terrible, gas was clear. About 80-85% was free of rust, some very small particles sitting on the bottom. I don't see it being a problem as long as I have the filter on the line before the pump. I'm putting having the tank reconditioned on my long term to do list.

Will post again after this weekend.....see how it goes.

 

[Baron3-6]

Just spent half the day tinkering:

The civie fuel pump works well! I put the fuel cap in the correct position, primed the fuel line with a hand pump, and it was getting to the carb without issues.

The new cap and rotor work well, the plugs I pulled and watched had a crisp blue spark on them.

After some long shots of ether, she was popping and smoking more but sounded like she was drowning out.

I spotted some fuel leaking from the throttle to bell crank vent line....and then I removed the carb to investigate. There was about 1/8" of standing fuel in the intake manifold. I pumped it out. So, obviously the previous owner who supplied the carb he had "rebuilt", did not do a good job. I have the manual for the carb...I'm halfway tempted to tear into it, on the other hand, a core swap for a rebuilt one is sounding a little better. My idle screw is in the half-open position as well.

Any thoughts on this? Could all that fuel have caused any problems?

Run truck, run....

 

[WarrenD]

I'd check and probably change the oil.