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No Retainer?!?!

WillWagner

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Matt, By retainer, do you mean a bolted flange to the flywheel housing?? I haven't had the pleasure of having a trans/clutch and flywheel out..yet. It looks like the seal is just a standard CR, felpro, etc, pushed in seal. No flanges, just pushed into the housing, sealed with the rubber od of the seal.
 

OPCOM

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Honestly I can't answer or I would have. Mine has a small leak like 1 quart in 3000 miles so I have never found a need to tear it apart for that. besides, it keeps the underside of the truck from rusting.
 

FSBruva

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Will-

Normally, a 6 bolt retainer (into which the seal is pressed) is bolted to the rear OF THE ENGINE. However, it would seem that the my retainer is the entire bellhousing. Standby... let me get some pics from the manuals...

Matt
 

FSBruva

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So, the following pictures should help illustrate my conundrum...

The bellhousing that the manual shows for the LDS-465-2 is the one that is closest to the one I have. Starter is on the passenger side, the motor mounts are not integral to the bellhousing. However, even the pictured bellhousing has a large enough cutout in the center to fit around the seal retainer.

The "normal" bellhousing and retainer are also pictured below.

Good times!

Matt
 

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Recovry4x4

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That "Normal" bellhousing puts the starter on the drivers side indicating it is for the 5 tons. I'm still researcing this.

Edit, I've checked every parts manual I can find, nothing! Matt, how far are you on this? I'd be interested to see whats behind the bellhousing but I know thats more work.
 

Crash_AF

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I know it will be a big job, but this is all I've got...

Pull the adapter plate (The part you're calling 'bellhousing') and see if the seal is pressed into there. It looks like it is in the picture.

You could try to remove the seal with the adapter still on the engine, but without knowing if that's how it is supposed to go together, I'd pull the adapter to be sure before breaking something.

Later,
Joe
 

devilman96

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Never seen a retainer on a rear main...

To remove the seal without pulling the plate off... Drill a small hole in the seal, thread in a screw and use it to pry on... It usually take several holes / screws to remove the seal but its too difficult to manage.
 

FSBruva

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Crash -
The seal is pressed into the bellhousing (in actuality, it is the flywheel housing, but I think everyone knows what I mean), with the lip facing the appropriate way, per the TM. We pulled the seal out, and I will try and get pics up of what the bellhousing looks like, sans seal.

DM-
We only had to put one screw in - hooked it up to the slide hammer, and out she popped. The P/N on the seal we pulled out is the same as the seal in one of Dave's multi's that HAS the retainer - so it's the same seal. We very carefully pressed in the new seal, and now we're waiting on a pilot bushing to re-assemble.

Kenny-
I also would be very interested to pull the bellhousing - but not right now. We are prepping for quite a road trip, and doing "extra" projects isn't on the agenda. It might be something I work on once I get to ATL, or the next time the rear main acts up. The pictures are a little less than helpful, that's for sure. Not to mention, in the -34P multifuel manual, all those black and white pictures didn't scan into the PDF very well, so even trying to use that is a pain.

I forgot to mention, all those pictures are from the Multi TM, 9-2815-210-34-2-2 and 34-2-1.

Matt
 

Crash_AF

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Yep, that's what it looked like to me, but I wasn't sure. I was a genset mechanic in the Air Force. I'm just getting up to speed on the differences between stationary and mobile.

Later,
Joe
 

FSBruva

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Some notes/comments on the rear main seal replacement: (sorry for the length and lack of pictures)

I went with the more pricey NAPA seal, the one made of Flouromaster. We'll see how that one works out for me. For pulling the transmission, I ended up disconnecting the winch PTO propeller shaft and forward axle propeller shaft (at the transfer case), and just let them dangle. I completely removed the stub propeller shaft between the transmission and transfer case, because I couldn't get it to the side far enough to be out of the way. Plus, I couldn't get the shaft separated, which was the other option to get the u-joint out of the way of the transmission.

As for supporting the transmission, I used DaveP's Tractor Supply 2 ton engine hoist. We couldn't get directly over the transmission at first, so we pulled the step off the passenger side. That gave us an extra 6 inches, which allowed us to boom up almost to the cab roof before we hooked into the transmission. At first I connected the handy little engine leveling doodad, but the handle for that was going to get caught on the way down. So, we hooked two ratchet straps around the back and middle of the transmission, and ran the fwd chains directly from the tranny to the hook on the hoist, and removed the rear chains entirely.

We put the transmission in first to pull the sprag linkage piece as far forward as possible, undid the bolts, and wiggled and shimmied the transmission to the deck. I put the little wood block under the pressure plate fingers, but we didn't have hardwood, so they were less than optimally effective. I used ratchet to loosen the bolts holding the pressure plate to the flywheel, doing about a quarter turn per bolt, all the way around until they were all loose. Pulled the pressure plate and found all kinds of goodies (metal chunks) stuck to the inside of the flywheel's gunk. They were residue from when the first transmission in the truck destroyed itself before I got it.

Used my Earthquake impact to pull the 6 flywheel bolts. I didn't have the stud yet, so I just manhandled the flywheel out and onto the deck. After doing about 30 minutes of head scratching, used a drill to start a hole in the seal, then threaded in a wood screw. Hooked the wood screw to the slide hammer, and out the seal popped. Set the new seal up against the crankshaft, and carefully applied Break-away to ease the seal on. Got the seal around the shaft, but had a heck of a time getting it to start setting into the housing. We ended up using the old seal and a metal plate to press the seal in.

Then we noticed that the pilot bushing was all worn and beat to heck (either the cause of or result of the previous transmission's "adventure.") Tried the old "Indian trick" of filling the hole with grease and then hammering a narrow rod to push the bushing out - no luck. Then DaveP got the slide hammer back out, and it had an attachment that worked perfectly. Went to NAPA, Spies, local marine shops, and they had nothing in stock. Stopped at a little local auto/machine shop, and they had it in stock. SCORE!

Picked up a threaded rod from NAPA and wrapped it in a layer of duck tape, and it worked like a charm for the flywheel. Cleaned up and slid the flywheel on, and followed the TM for the rest of that step. We used the hot knife to cut the input shaft off of my old transmission - MAN that took a long time to cool. Anyways - voila! Instant clutch alignment tool/bushing installer. Pushed it in and installed the pressure plate, slowly tightening the bolts around and around. Gasket on the adapter plate was a little tired, to put some RTV where it needed it, and installed the adapter plate. Threw a spot of grease in the pilot bushing, and then started booming up on the engine hoist.

It took the fiancee motivating the transmission with her feet from above, and me from below to get the input shaft lined up right. Then with her keeping steady pressure, I put the transmission in gear and wiggled the output shaft to get the splines on the clutch/input shaft to line up. Put the top two bolts in, then re configured the lifting gear to include the engine leveler. This allowed us to finish wiggling the transmission into place. Torqued everything, and then re-connected all the drive shafts, linkages and such.

Hard parts involved getting the input shaft clear of the pressure plate, and getting the input shaft into the pilot bushing.

Hope that was enough of a gas-bag explanation. I will try to get pics of some stuff, but most of it we were too busy to stop and take a picture.

Matt
 

FSBruva

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As an update on the mysterious flywheel housing -

The part number stamped on the housing (45-1040252) corresponds to the NSN (2815-00-247-7011) listed in the LDS-427 parts manual. SO... looks like I might have an LDS flywheel housing, even though all the manuals for the 427 show that it uses the same retainer as the other multifuels. I will want to replace it at some point, because pressing the seal into a retainer would be MUCH easier than the way we had to do it. However, that means messing with the rear motor mounts, so that's why we didn't mess with it at all this time.

Matt
 

serp

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i took my flywheel off today and there is an aluminum lock ring around seal. looking at pics you must have a different design. you have no holes to bolt ring onto.
 

FSBruva

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ken - 49927 is the part number. Ran me about $104 with shipping. It was cheaper to order online than have it ordered to my local store.

serp - that "aluminum lock ring" is the seal retainer that I am missing. That's the mystery of this whole thread/topic is that I have a different design than any engine manual specifies.

Matt
 

connectingbar

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I have the same condition. Seal came out no problem, but how far do you seat the new seal into the housing ? from the way I measured the seal can go another 1/8 .

On another note, with these types of housings there are 3 holes drilled in the block behind the housing to let oil drain back just like the retainer style housings.. By far the easiest rear main job I have ever done.
 

Jake0147

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That seal probably has a specific installation tool listed for it. It's not anything special, so I don't think it'd be a Hercules tool, I'd imagine it would be from the seal manufacturer. Essentially it will be a cup shaped device with an outer diameter that just fits inside the hole in the flywheel housing where the seal presses in. You'll still have to hammer it into place. Unless of course it is SUPPOSED to be flushed with the clutch side surface... Then the tool would be a kind of cumbersome I'm sure for what it would do. Either way I suspect would be manually "driven" and not pressed... Were there grooves or visible wear lines in the crankshaft in any way? If so, keeping the seal moved a few thousandths might be in your favor.

Question for you on an unrelated subject- Does this non-separate seal retainer type clutch housing have the stowage port for the fording plug?
 
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