P-51 Mustang Down

[Augdog1964]

P-51

So sad... its horrible... thats a P-51 and a B-17 this year.

It won't be long before the discussion of grounding all these planes for posterity sake is brought forth. Hard discussion... tough to build new replica B-17s...

 

[vtdeucedriver]

A skyraider too was lost in may with both souls lost.

 

[mutt_kahuna]

P-51 down

Maybe it's time for the aftermarket to make ballistic parachutes for warbirds...this company has chutes for sport size aircraft and has claimed to have saved over 200 lives and A/C.... www.brsparachutes.com the P-51 from what I saw from the video wasnt on fire and MAY have been saved by a system like this.....Time to step up and prevent a grounding of ALL classic warbirds.

 

[bulldog_mack13]

Its wasnt a WW2 War Bird like some of us think.

 

[stumps]

No matter how much money you have , you can't fix stupid . The maneuver did not look very well rehearsed to me . The P51 did not appear to have major damage and makes you wonder if it was still flyable , although from the looks of the Skyraider it may not have been flyable .

It didn't look to me like the damaged P51 was unflyable, but then I wasn't sitting in the cockpit. It is within the realm of possibilities that a more seasoned P51 pilot would have landed the plane... The only pilot that mattered in that plane thought it best to bail out and head for Dodge City.

We will have to wait for the FAA reports.

-Chuck

 

[saddamsnightmare]

July 13th, 2011.

Seems that my friend Stumps up above was a bit out of joint at my comments.... But permit me to say, you don't own the machines in question, Those who did were just the caretakers for the future and they failed miserably at doing their jobs. If you think you do own something, just don't pay taxes on it, you'll find out who really does rather quick. AND I have put my money where my mouth is, to the point of loaning an irreplaceable GP9 locomotive to a bunch of train fanatics who went belly up when I was on furlough one year. Long story short, I won't loan another locomotive even to my granny without movement money to bring the machine home. AND I have encouraged the preservation of machinery by donation to reputable museums. The point of it is, there is almost no call to stunt any of these aircraft, and given the increasing chances for mechanical and structural failures, no need to.
LETS see the airplane afficonados put their money up front and get the tooling done for new P51's or B17's, its not impossible if you have the change... and the designs aren't that terribly technically sophisticated or complex. We lost one B29 to an absolute idiot who chose to not air lift her out, we lost a B17 to a fuel line leak two weeks ago, and a P51 in the incident above, you can't breed stupid out, it's in the bones. The English have proven that they can do things like recreate a brand new Peppercorn Pacific (Steam Locomotive, see youtube "Peppercorn Pacific" or "locomotive Tornado"), the "Tornado", while we Americans are unable to reproduce a locomotive built after 1863 because we won't put the monies up. Curatorially and Historically speaking, you DO NOT lose historic aircraft by storing and displaying in properly designed, and maintained fireproof/tornado proof facilities, you do lose them by flying and pushing them more then they ever need to be.... Duraluminum will degrade over time asd all aluminum does, so sooner or later someone's going to be making reproduction parts even if they only want them to sit. It's not personal, it's just my two cents worth, and I love seeing the folks tear up priceless machines for a thrill, they do it all the time at Nascar, and perhaps humans are more common then P51D's.....

 

[Chief_919]

To everyone saying don't fly these, think of the unintended consequence of this.

Most of these surviving warbirds were junk a few decades ago and were rebuilt by people motivated to do so because they could fly them.

People don't spend the $$$ to restore these birds from bits and pieces to put them on the floor in a museum.

If they were not allowed to fly these planes, you wouldn't have seen this accident because this plane wouldn't be in a museum, it would long ago have been turned into beer cans and Chinese tools.

So while this end was tragic, before it was lost millions of people got to see it fly. And that ending is nowhere near as tragic as it having been scrapped 40 years ago because nobody wants to spend millions to restore a static display.

The reason most surviving planes survive today is because people motivated to fly them invested the money to save them.

FWIW, the plane didn't burn. That means the dataplate survived. If they have the dataplate, that serial # will fly again. There are several P-51's that have been restored now but lack a data plate and serial #- the insurnace money will buy one to rivit the data plate too.

 

[combatmech]

Even after 50 years, Able Dog Skyraider can still take a hit...and keep flying.
Still not sure how it all happend. It is sad that Big Beautiful Doll was lost. Aircraft in a lot worse condition have been brought back to life. Old warbirds and current aircraft in the inventory.

 

[mutt_kahuna]

P-51 down

The aftermarket has done it with the replica FW-190's and ME-262's...now they are doing a P-51 FULL SIZE replica called the AP-51 palomino....they figure it would cost apx $75000 to complete an exact replica of a WWII mustang at half the cost of a real one...this would be a great idea for the guys who race the real mustangs at the air races at Reno.....who knows how long original P-51's metal/airframes will last figuring the newest ones are now over 65 years old...check out their site... www.flugwerk.de/ click on the eingang hanger and German flag to open the site

 

[stumps]

July 13th, 2011.

Seems that my friend Stumps up above was a bit out of joint at my comments....

Not out of joint at you Kyle, I am just fed up with people taking an ownership interest in other peoples property. It happens when the Historic Commission of your local community decides that the old dilapidated log house on your property is historic, and you must fix it up proper, or get fined. It happens when well meaning folks like ourselves start buzzing about how the owners of this or that airplane aren't preserving history, or being proper stewards of the future.

If we couldn't drive our HMV's, most of them would have been scrapped...period! The same is true of the old flyable warbirds that are still existent. They were virtually all wrecked, and sold for scrap at one point. They were all rebuilt for the express purpose of being flown. If it was left to Joe and Jane Sixpack, to save them, they would have ended up as more beer cans.

This particular P51D was a most appropriate airplane to have an accident in... if there can be such a thing.... It wasn't particularly historically significant. It wasn't built before WWII. It wasn't even built in the USA. It was a licensed copy made in Australia, and was built up from the scrap remains of many wrecked P51's. It will be born again in some form and will likely fly again.

At this point in time, there are numerous restorers that can make every part in the P51D. Even the engines are available new. Virtually all P51D's flying today are built from a mishmash of parts, new, used, and remanufactured. About the only thing that is certain to be original is the ID plate riveted to the fuse.

-Chuck

 

[bulldog_mack13]

Again this wasnt a WW2 War Bird..

It was built in the 50's , it wasnt the WW2 Big Beautiful Doll . Just a P51 made in the 50's to look like it.
Like the B17 that flies around looking like the Memphis Bell and its just the movie plane. (then again that one is a WW2 War Bird , just not the Memphis Bell.)

 

[vtdeucedriver]

Maybe it's time for the aftermarket to make ballistic parachutes for warbirds...this company has chutes for sport size aircraft and has claimed to have saved over 200 lives and A/C.... www.brsparachutes.com the P-51 from what I saw from the video wasnt on fire and MAY have been saved by a system like this.....Time to step up and prevent a grounding of ALL classic warbirds.

Your kidding right?????? Most of said aircraft are composite construction and once you make the decision to deploy. You may survive but the aircraft will be a total write off. I'm sorry but this is just dumb. But not dumber than not flying them at all. Let's just say we all buy our trucks and not drive them anymore so we don't get run over on the interstate and get ourselves killed.

 

[mutt_kahuna]

P-51 down

No..not kidding...while the company started with experimentals and ultra lights,the design and size now include certified A/C...the largest right now is a cessna 182 with a loaded wieght of apx 3100 lbs...the closest "warbird" around that wieght is an AT-6 trainer at 4158...so it is very possible to save both the pilot and airframe (at least have pieces big enough to restore)...yes,it would take a LOT larger chute for a P-51 (7185 lbs empty)... but it looks feasible....something like this beats baling out and have your classic burrow to china.

 

[vtdeucedriver]

No..not kidding...while the company started with experimentals and ultra lights,the design and size now include certified A/C...the largest right now is a cessna 182 with a loaded wieght of apx 3100 lbs...the closest "warbird" around that wieght is an AT-6 trainer at 4158...so it is very possible to save both the pilot and airframe (at least have pieces big enough to restore)...yes,it would take a LOT larger chute for a P-51 (7185 lbs empty)... but it looks feasible....something like this beats baling out and have your classic burrow to china.

Well the t-6 at gross wt is about 5,600 lbs and I bet the 51 is over 8k. Now yes it proven to survive but on a old airplane, I can't see it happening. The cirrus is standard equipment and the harness that the chute is attached to lays in channels that are part of it's construction and is then fiberglassed over during assembly. Once the decision is made the straps rip through the side of the fuselage and there you hang in suspension. Now with that damage sustained you have the landing where the gear is driven throug the wing but yet you walk away. BRS designed their system for the event in structural failure in ultralights. The brs system is still the #1 method of saving yourself but if it's just a engine failure and a possible dead stick in a field might be the best answer. But if you pull the chute. The insurance company will write it off.

 

[vtdeucedriver]

In recent accidents, a brs chute would only have worked in maybe one incident.

Tbm avenger in nj. Inflight fire after take off. Emer landing, pilot burns but survives aircraft a total loss.

B-17 inflight fire after take off. Emer landing everyone safe.
P-51 initiates a go around on bounced landing. AC torque rolls pilot killed.
P-51 engine failure after take off. Off airport landing. Major damage pilot survives.
B-25 engine failure after take off. Off airport landing. No injuries. Aircraft a write off.

Now a p-40 practicing aerobatics at altitude got slow at the top of a loop and spun. Not enough altitude to recover and hit the water. Pilot was killed.

All of these have been in 3 years.

 

[mutt_kahuna]

P-51 down

In recent accidents, a brs chute would only have worked in maybe one incident.

Tbm avenger in nj. Inflight fire after take off. Emer landing, pilot burns but survives aircraft a total loss.

B-17 inflight fire after take off. Emer landing everyone safe.
P-51 initiates a go around on bounced landing. AC torque rolls pilot killed.
P-51 engine failure after take off. Off airport landing. Major damage pilot survives.
B-25 engine failure after take off. Off airport landing. No injuries. Aircraft a write off.

Now a p-40 practicing aerobatics at altitude got slow at the top of a loop and spun. Not enough altitude to recover and hit the water. Pilot was killed.

All of these have been in 3 years.

Agreed....B-17= Too big...B-25=Too big...low altitude accidents like those last ones..no chance...but if it saves JUST one classic...then there's one more classic for future generations to enjoy....cirrus,C-182 are relatively a dime a dozen and replaceable...a P-40 one of a handful..same F8F..etc etc...the list goes on...just watching that video of the skyraider and P-51 though sure seems like a good canidate for saving that way...OF COURSE...neither of us were in the cockpit and we can be monday am QB's all we want....you know the ol' shoulda,coulda,woulda thing

 

[vtdeucedriver]

Well I can't say they are not replaceable either. All of the aircraft mentioned "can be rebuilt" if deep enough pockets are had. You know you mention the p40 as rare. Well when it comes to fighters, they are not that rare. Thanks to a huge movement in new Zealand and Australia groups, they are building new parts that have not been made since the fortys. The p51 is no different. It's only hang up is the supply of rolls Royce Merlin engines and at the rate that jack roush is making parts to keep existing merlins going, he will be making new engines before too long. Mark
My words, that p51 will fly again. Parts and pieces will be used and like it's been mentioned before. It all starts with the data plate. Throw your wallet on top of it and it will one day fly!!

 

[vtdeucedriver]

Well I can't say they are not replaceable either. All of the aircraft mentioned "can be rebuilt" if deep enough pockets are had. You know you mention the p40 as rare. Well when it comes to fighters, they are not that rare. Thanks to a huge movement in new Zealand and Australia groups, they are building new parts that have not been made since the fortys. The p51 is no different. It's only hang up is the supply of rolls Royce Merlin engines and at the rate that jack roush is making parts to keep existing merlins going, he will be making new engines before too long. Mark
My words, that p51 will fly again. Parts and pieces will be used and like it's been mentioned before. It all starts with the data plate. Throw your wallet on top of it and it will one day fly!!

 

[mutt_kahuna]

P-51 down

According to figures,apx 19 P-40's worldwide are flying with about the same # being restored...compared to the 200 P-51's just in the USA...they're rare....I mean we can split hairs.... surviving F-82's= rare...flyable P-40's=not so much

 

[98taco3]

Just as with the b17 that just burnt, parts and pieces of this wreck will fly again in another airframe. There is always something salvageable if its needed badly enough by someone completing another aircraft.