PA - Military vehicle registration....

[Sephirothq]

I was just going to comment on the same thing. I have my test on Friday this week for my M923. YOu can't drive them with just a class C.

I have now spent countless hours chasing this down, including going to PennDOT license center in Bensalem and talking to pretty much everyone there. Per Joe at Bensalem PennDOT -- one of the guys that conducts CDL tests, I had to get a CDL b/c the 5 ton has airbrakes. His colleague, Tom, bought into my story line, which is 5 ton is exempt b/c it's antique and does not qualify as commercial vehicle. They went to supervisor, who professed ignorance. One of these guys had son in military, so they took some pity on me and my desperate quest to really make sure I'm legal. Joe called me a few days later (unheard of service for PennDOT, huh!) and said he called Harrisburg and this is the DEFINITIVE ANSWER:

1) You do NOT need CDL
2) You DO need to change the regular PA Class C license to a CLASS B (NON CDL) license - b/c the 5 ton DOES exceed 26K GVWR. Class B NON CDL lets you drive a NON commercial vehicle (e.g. antique 5 ton or large motor home) weighing above 26K CDL.
3) You do NOT need a "knowledge test" (where you take a test and answer questions) to get the Class B, but do need a driving test with your vehicle.
4) You DO need separate air brake test/endorsement on license, again b/c 5 ton has AIR BRAKES.

Joe issued me a learners permit for a Class B for $5. He told me to come back to take a driving test for the airbrake endorsement, "when you are ready" -- but within a year of getting the learner's permit. At the driving test, he said he'll want to make sure I know basics for airbrakes, like "what happens when you run out of air." He suggested I read up on the air brakes part in CDL book -- let's face it guys, if you got through 8th grade, you can pass the test on air brakes!

I will wind up getting the Class B, for two simple reasons. First, even though most local cops won't bother you at all, there is a chance you might get pulled over elsewhere (post 9-11 they all fear some Rambo Jihadi and they might pull you over just for that). So I want to be able to show the cop my class B that says I'm legal to drive > 26K GVWR and not have any issues. Worse, many enforcement officers assume (as did Joe initially) that airbrakes automatically invokes CDL, so having a Class B NON CDL license with airbrake endorsement, is 100% defense against this argument. Otherwise, you are left there trying to convince the officer that an antique offers you exemption against BOTH GVWR and airbrakes... do you really want an interpretational debate on the side of the road -- remember most these guys aren't used to and very much resent being told they are wrong -- and the downside is they simply tow your truck ($$$) and maybe give a few tickets to boot.

The second reason I am going to get Class B NON CDL w/airbrake endorsement is god forbid I hit someone in this monster, imagine the field day their lawyer will have suing me... so you drove a truck exceeding your rated license and you lacked the proper certification for stopping it!!! And now my client's neck hurts!!! I rather be absolutely 100% legal!

As far as LEO ignoring antiques, I don't know what kind of courtesy they show, but they typically won't know it's antique until after they pull you over. And they are so hungry for revenue, unless you are dealing w/someone who is former military, they might just throw you in their meat grinder. I've gotten 3 tickets once while driving a brand new pick up truck w/my kids coming back from Home Depot!! They made me go to some inspection station and said I had too much weight on my rear axle, the straps I was using to tie my purchases weren't DOT approved and some other crap. When I told the guy I was a homeowner and had no clue about this, he said "that's what all you contractors say." Only when I went to Court and showed up in my suit from day job, he said he remembered me and agreed to drop the tix w/o my even going in front of a judge. As I said, it's a revenue thing and who needs to risk huge tow bill and tickets when for a bit of hassle and $5 or so in license fee, you can avoid even the most fiendish enforcement vampires.

FWIW, I registered my truck as antique b/c of the savings. The registration says "Title Brands: Antique Vehicle" It does NOT show GVWR, but it does show "unladen weight" 21,550". Per PennDOT, it is NOT unladen weight that invokes CDL, it's GVWR. And the forms I filled out when registering definitely had GVWR on them, so I assume LEO can see it on their screen when they pull you over. Even if they can't see GVWR on their system, they can see it on the plate inside truck.... (I was thinking of strategies to show it's non CDL by arguing it's under 26K GVWR, but this is so easily disproven, it's not worth the risk LEO will peg you as trying to fool him)

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to share my learnings.

 

[Lonnie]

Atleast on the M809 series, you can skip the air brake endorsement.

When my truck was previously titled, it was reduced to 26,000, so the previous title showed that.
When it came back as an antique it only showed the unladen weight.

As far as antique plates, I saw that some other states allow you to run without a plate. PA requires a plate as far as I know, but many guys i know do not run them.
I would prefer to leave my license plate off for looks, but I would rather have the police see that it is an antique instead of pulling me over.

Sephirothq, please fill us in on the details of your test after you take it.
Interested in what you encounter.

Also the learners permit you obtained, requires you to have a licensed person with you to drive correct?

 

[mikey]

I have now spent countless hours chasing this down, including going to PennDOT license center in Bensalem and talking to pretty much everyone there. Per Joe at Bensalem PennDOT -- one of the guys that conducts CDL tests, I had to get a CDL b/c the 5 ton has airbrakes. His colleague, Tom, bought into my story line, which is 5 ton is exempt b/c it's antique and does not qualify as commercial vehicle. They went to supervisor, who professed ignorance. One of these guys had son in military, so they took some pity on me and my desperate quest to really make sure I'm legal. Joe called me a few days later (unheard of service for PennDOT, huh!) and said he called Harrisburg and this is the DEFINITIVE ANSWER:

1) You do NOT need CDL
2) You DO need to change the regular PA Class C license to a CLASS B (NON CDL) license - b/c the 5 ton DOES exceed 26K GVWR. Class B NON CDL lets you drive a NON commercial vehicle (e.g. antique 5 ton or large motor home) weighing above 26K CDL.
3) You do NOT need a "knowledge test" (where you take a test and answer questions) to get the Class B, but do need a driving test with your vehicle.
4) You DO need separate air brake test/endorsement on license, again b/c 5 ton has AIR BRAKES.

Joe issued me a learners permit for a Class B for $5. He told me to come back to take a driving test for the airbrake endorsement, "when you are ready" -- but within a year of getting the learner's permit. At the driving test, he said he'll want to make sure I know basics for airbrakes, like "what happens when you run out of air." He suggested I read up on the air brakes part in CDL book -- let's face it guys, if you got through 8th grade, you can pass the test on air brakes!

I will wind up getting the Class B, for two simple reasons. First, even though most local cops won't bother you at all, there is a chance you might get pulled over elsewhere (post 9-11 they all fear some Rambo Jihadi and they might pull you over just for that). So I want to be able to show the cop my class B that says I'm legal to drive > 26K GVWR and not have any issues. Worse, many enforcement officers assume (as did Joe initially) that airbrakes automatically invokes CDL, so having a Class B NON CDL license with airbrake endorsement, is 100% defense against this argument. Otherwise, you are left there trying to convince the officer that an antique offers you exemption against BOTH GVWR and airbrakes... do you really want an interpretational debate on the side of the road -- remember most these guys aren't used to and very much resent being told they are wrong -- and the downside is they simply tow your truck ($$$) and maybe give a few tickets to boot.

The second reason I am going to get Class B NON CDL w/airbrake endorsement is god forbid I hit someone in this monster, imagine the field day their lawyer will have suing me... so you drove a truck exceeding your rated license and you lacked the proper certification for stopping it!!! And now my client's neck hurts!!! I rather be absolutely 100% legal!

As far as LEO ignoring antiques, I don't know what kind of courtesy they show, but they typically won't know it's antique until after they pull you over. And they are so hungry for revenue, unless you are dealing w/someone who is former military, they might just throw you in their meat grinder. I've gotten 3 tickets once while driving a brand new pick up truck w/my kids coming back from Home Depot!! They made me go to some inspection station and said I had too much weight on my rear axle, the straps I was using to tie my purchases weren't DOT approved and some other crap. When I told the guy I was a homeowner and had no clue about this, he said "that's what all you contractors say." Only when I went to Court and showed up in my suit from day job, he said he remembered me and agreed to drop the tix w/o my even going in front of a judge. As I said, it's a revenue thing and who needs to risk huge tow bill and tickets when for a bit of hassle and $5 or so in license fee, you can avoid even the most fiendish enforcement vampires.

FWIW, I registered my truck as antique b/c of the savings. The registration says "Title Brands: Antique Vehicle" It does NOT show GVWR, but it does show "unladen weight" 21,550". Per PennDOT, it is NOT unladen weight that invokes CDL, it's GVWR. And the forms I filled out when registering definitely had GVWR on them, so I assume LEO can see it on their screen when they pull you over. Even if they can't see GVWR on their system, they can see it on the plate inside truck.... (I was thinking of strategies to show it's non CDL by arguing it's under 26K GVWR, but this is so easily disproven, it's not worth the risk LEO will peg you as trying to fool him)

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to share my learnings.

This information is 100% accurate. Unfortunately, PennDot locations are not always aware of the rules. You can request the non commercial Class B OR Class A. I have a non commercial Class A permit because I want to pull a trailer (NON COMMERCIALLY) behind my M931A2. The permit is often referred to as the "class B RV" endorsement. The form you fill out will vary depending on the Penndot location. For my 939, I did pay $6 for the permit. I did not have a written test. I do have a driving test and I do need the air brake endorsement.

Prior to going to my PennDot location I was told the odds are the person at the counter will deny the existence of Class A or B non commercial. That was correct. I insisted on speaking with a manager. She reluctantly obliged. The manager confirmed that it exists and that she has only done about 5 in her 20 years. The clerk had done none in her three years. They did not know what form to use for sure. I wish I could tell you the form #, but I did not keep a copy. I am almost certain it was the standard form for Commercial CDL, but they checked a box to indicate non commercial. It was filled out, and filed and I received my permit.

I am entitled to register my truck with classic tags (I want to drive at night and PennDot has checkpoints weekly in our neck of the woods where they harass drivers) and yet I am able to pull the same trailer or load as a standard trucker as long as it is NOT for commercial use. I should add that with the Class A non commercial, I'm not required to take an annual physical, adhere to random drug tests or be accountable for to the lower BAC of .04 as you are with a CDL.

 

[mikey]

Atleast on the M809 series, you can skip the air brake endorsement.

When my truck was previously titled, it was reduced to 26,000, so the previous title showed that.
When it came back as an antique it only showed the unladen weight.

As far as antique plates, I saw that some other states allow you to run without a plate. PA requires a plate as far as I know, but many guys i know do not run them.
I would prefer to leave my license plate off for looks, but I would rather have the police see that it is an antique instead of pulling me over.

Sephirothq, please fill us in on the details of your test after you take it.
Interested in what you encounter.

Also the learners permit you obtained, requires you to have a licensed person with you to drive correct?

When I requested my SF97, I chose 25k as my GVWR. GL sent a title (Arizona) with that as the GVWR. When I went to flip the title, I had to get a GVWR verification at a licensed mechanic. The PA title (which I have yet to receive) will state the actual GVWR. Fortunately, I've chosen to get the non commercial Class A, so it's not an issue.

 

[Sephirothq]

I will let you guys know how it goes and make a thread on it and why you need it. Far too often I see the rational that you can drive a M939 series truck with a class C if you derate the GVW under 26,000 lbs. That does not work and will lead you into trouble becuase they go off the data on the truck.

It would be like saying you don't need a class A license for a tractor trailer combination as long as the trailer is registered less then 10,000 and the truck less then 26,000. It doesn't work and you will get a ticket or two. So enjoy.

 

[mikey]

I was just going to comment on the same thing. I have my test on Friday this week for my M923. YOu can't drive them with just a class C.

Please keep us posted. I've read countless stories of testers not being sure how to test for non commercial and to expect the regular CDL test. Some applicants who did NOT need the air brake endorsement (RV's) were told they still needed to take the air brake test. Unfortunately, the non commercial class A and B seem to be an issue depending on the various centers and testers simply because they are so uncommon and so poorly documented within PennDot. I was given a standard CDL manual with my non commercial class A permit.

 

[Sephirothq]

you will need to study parts 10,11,12 on that book. That is the test per Penndot higher ups.

 

[mikey]

you will need to study parts 10,11,12 on that book. That is the test per Penndot higher ups.

Thank you. I would personally suggest you read the entire manual. At least that is my plan. You can check RV forums for people who have failed because they only studied those sections, but were given the standard CDL test and were not prepared. Once again, it will ALL depend on who your tester is that day.

 

[datadawg]

Also the learners permit you obtained, requires you to have a licensed person with you to drive correct?

Correct -- the top form says, "When driving with a learner's permit you must be accompanied by a driver who is at least 21 years of age or spouse 18 years of age who has a valid driver's license for the class of vehicle you are driving. The person must sit in the seat beside you." I even asked the guy if this permit means that when I'm pulled over driving my regular car, the cop will see only a permit in the computer and give me a ticket if I'm alone. He laughed and assured me that won't be the case... and that my regular license is still valid.

 

[datadawg]

Prior to going to my PennDot location I was told the odds are the person at the counter will deny the existence of Class A or B non commercial. That was correct. I insisted on speaking with a manager. She reluctantly obliged. The manager confirmed that it exists and that she has only done about 5 in her 20 years. The clerk had done none in her three years. They did not know what form to use for sure. I wish I could tell you the form #, but I did not keep a copy. I am almost certain it was the standard form for Commercial CDL, but they checked a box to indicate non commercial. It was filled out, and filed and I received my permit.

This is just like my experience! PennDOT people on the phone (after 3 transfers) told me I needed to file form DL-901, Don Commercial Drivers License Application to Change, check the box in section B that says "add/extend" and write "Class B, Non CDL" on the line adjacent to "other". When I got to the service center in Bucks County, the guy at counter started his you need a CDL routine and after he agreed I would not, he still maintained I'd need the airbrake endorsement. He tried adding it, but could not. Then another guy took over and said you can't add air brake endorsement unless you use the CDL system, so he filled out a DL-31CD "Commercial Learner's Permit and checked off in part B "To Operate Vehicles Equipped with Air Brakes". When he gave me the form to sign, it required me to certify that "I drive or expect to drive a commercial vehicle..." and warned that under "penalty of law ... misstatement of fact is a misdemeanor of the third degree" Since I wasn't planning to drive this as commercial vehicle, I told him all this was making me nervous, so he then got his supervisor and they decided they needed to call Harrisburg...The DL-31 was never filed after all.

[/QUOTE] I am entitled to register my truck with classic tags (I want to drive at night and PennDot has checkpoints weekly in our neck of the woods where they harass drivers) and yet I am able to pull the same trailer or load as a standard trucker as long as it is NOT for commercial use. I should add that with the Class A non commercial, I'm not required to take an annual physical, adhere to random drug tests or be accountable for to the lower BAC of .04 as you are with a CDL.[/QUOTE]

My friend has a CDL and he says that there are many disadvantages to having a CDL. If they pull you over w/CDL, you get absolutely zero leeway, they won't give you warning for speeding, etc and will cite you for anything and everything. You can't plead ignorance and hope to get warning. You are deemed to be a professional driver and charged with a higher standard of care and duty. Also, w/regular license, they need consent to look in your trunk, with a CDL you are deemed to consent to inspection of vehicle, so you might be giving up some rights. Not that I'm going to be hauling contraband and I'm no constitutional lawyer, but still...

 

[ecostruction]

Are you guys planning on taking the test in a MV? I've heard horror stories of people who showed up in something like that and were turned away because the testers didn't think the vehicles were road worthy.

For me, I need to figure out how to take the Class A CDL. I checked into the non-commercial, but I need a CDL.

 

[mikey]

I, for one, will be taking my M931A2. I would not be surprised if I got turned away. From what I've read, everything on test day depends on your tester.

I just got my title today. It does state 58k as the GVWR. Not sure if that will show up in the system. Every truck I've titled to date required the GVWR verification.

Mikey

 

[ChesterCounty]

tagging this thread

I titled mine thru GovLiq as an 1987 at 26000 pounds. AZ title came that way and no issues transferring that data over to a PA title. The Notary did say I needed either a mechanic verification or VIN trace. All I did was pencil trace the data plate and they accepted that.

Still reading this thread gives me a great deal more clarity then I got thru the typical channels everyone else likely has gone to. Great information and I need to look in to chasing down the noncommercial CDL

 

[Lonnie]

I am entitled to register my truck with classic tags (I want to drive at night and PennDot has checkpoints weekly in our neck of the woods where they harass drivers) and yet I am able to pull the same trailer or load as a standard trucker as long as it is NOT for commercial use. I should add that with the Class A non commercial, I'm not required to take an annual physical, adhere to random drug tests or be accountable for to the lower BAC of .04 as you are with a CDL.

With classic plates you are not allowed to haul cargo, just as with an antique.
This is directly off the DMV website...

"USE OF ANTIQUE, CLASSIC AND VINTAGE REGISTRATION PLATES
The use of Antique, Classic and Vintage registration plates is governed by Section 1340 of the Pennsylvania Vehicle Code, which states: “It is unlawful for any person to operate a motorcycle or vehicle with antique, classic or vintage registration plates for general daily transportation. Permitted use shall be limited to participation in club activities, exhibits, tours, parades, occasional transportation and similar uses.”Occasional transportation and similar uses is defined as one day a week.

Although buses and trucks are eligible for Antique, Classic and Vintage registration plates, buses MAY NOT be used to transport passengers and trucks MAY NOT haul cargo."

 

[Sephirothq]

Do not take a M931A2 for the test. Or at least not a class B test. They view the truck as a tractor and you will need a class A for the truck even though you do not have a trailer. I tried to take mine previously in an M818 and had an issue. So that is why I am going to use a M923 cargo truck.

Now if you have a 5th wheel trailer on the back of the truck that is a different story.

 

[68M35]

New to this as well. I'm considering a 68 M35. But am afraid of what limitations I may have with it. I would like to do small jobs with it such as Farm, construction, demolition and other small jobs. Who will insure a daily driver duece? That will only see up to 100 miles a day if that.

 

[datadawg]

New to this as well. I'm considering a 68 M35. But am afraid of what limitations I may have with it. I would like to do small jobs with it such as Farm, construction, demolition and other small jobs. Who will insure a daily driver duece? That will only see up to 100 miles a day if that.

Insurance is a hornet's nest issue. If you tag it using antique plates, your registration cost will be inexpensive (it's not based on GVWR, as a regular truck would be) and it's a permanent registration (no need to pay every year). It used to be $75 or so, but PennDOT increased their rates, so it's $125 now (or thereabouts). Still a great deal. BUT, insurance for "antique" vehicles has its own issues. Most carriers will require limits on usage (parade, personal pleasure use only). When I was shopping for policy, I asked an agent what happens if I go to Home Depot and get into an accident. They said, if you have to ask, this policy isn't for you. Forget the carrier now. The other problem is that the carriers that insure MV, expect them to be garaged. I bought a policy from American Modern and a month later they sent me a cancellation, unless I produced photos of the truck inside garage. I pleaded, cajoled, argued, to no avail. I even said I will forego the comprehensive part of the policy -- I didn't care about tree falling on my truck and damaging it, I only wanted to be covered for liability. They cancelled my policy. It almost made me uninsurable b/c all of them ask if policy has ever been cancelled and if you answer yes, they think you are some kind of fraudster and want nothing to do with you. I must have called dozen places. They all had garage requirement or placed usage limits like you can only do parades and once a month ice cream jaunts with kids. Finally, I found an agent that got me a policy with State Farm -- a regular carrier! They had an antique vehicle program without real mileage limits and no garage requirements. I even insisted to send them photos, so they couldn't later claim they didn't know what this truck was. The price was a pittance -- and they agreed to a $1MM liability coverage (which was my biggest concern).
I would hands down get this policy, if you can. The Agent was Chuck Seighman agency in Hopwood PA. Their # is 724 437-1591. Ask for Druann. She might or might not remember me, but they really delivered. Funny thing, is the policy even included emergency road service. I was afraid to push my luck and ask about the coverage... my 5 ton would cost $400 to tow!
Gary

 

[Big Dumb Truck]

Everyone is focusing their comments on cost of plates/insurance and need to inspect when discussing antique/classic plates vs. regular plates. What about CDL?? I heard, but not certain, that if you have MV w/classic plate or antique plate you do not need a CDL. Is that true?
I'm keen to find out, b/c I am getting a 923A2 and don't have a CDL. I plan to use it as a toy occasionally, but definitely don't want hassles w/LEO. I'm in Bucks County PA, which is northeast of Philly.

You won't need a CDL. If you look it up on the Pendot website, I think it says that a CDL is only needed if the vehicle is over a certain height or is used to cary x amount of passengers. Air brakes aren't a factor anymore.

 

[saddamsnightmare]

June 13th, 2015


68M35:


Good luck with getting your deuce insured for commercial work....that will probably not fly as the inspection restrictions are much tighter on a non-farm use working truck.... Beyond which, dream on, the chance of getting a deuce to run 100 miles a day year in and out is about like you or I going to the moon courtesy of NASA.... Maybe when they were new, but they are off road trucks and they averaged about 22 to 25 MPH normally....

Besides which, when you go to replace the tires (and they will wear out in very short time on pavement), you will go broke changing out 10 road tires.... You will find that either NDCC's or MPT tires do not wear like road truck tires in high speed running....And most tire guys won't work on lock ring rims like the deuce has, because if they make any mistake, the tire can kill you pretty darn quick. Changing 11 tires in Texas was about $1400 + 800 for the used tires at $70.00 each plus freight.... And that was an exceptionally cheap price.

 

[Ficrutch]

Required driver's license for over 26k MV in Pennsylvania

First, let me thank everyone for information that really helped. This was great material and if I had called DMV without reading this thread, I would have been completely misinformed and confused. Here is what I recently did (today) and the answers I received:

I called the PA State Police CDL division and asked what they would require if I were driving an MV like a M923 or M925. At first, the representative said I would need a CDL because the vehicle was "commercial" by definition if the Gross Vehicle Weight were greater than 26,000 lbs. I pointed out that there were exceptions to this like RVs, antique vehicles and other vehicles not being used commercially. He begrudgingly acquiesced, put me on hold, and returned to tell me I would need "a Class B non commercial CDL." I suggested that the C in CDL stands for "commercial," and he put me on hold again and said I need a "non commercial Class B license which he calls a "non commercial Class B CDL." Whatever the case, I am comfortable that he means a non commercial Class B license and not a Class B CDL. He did confirm, and I think he is correct, that there is no air brake endorsement, only a restriction. You will need to understand air brakes in order not to receive the restriction. That last comment made me realize I should next call the DMV regarding tests.

First, however, I searched around on the internet trying to determine if there were a knowledge test for the Class B non commercial. The answers were mixed so I begrudgingly called the PA DMV and after waiting for some time, was able to speak to a live body. I was told that there is, in fact, a knowledge test and it is the "same" as the knowledge test for the Class B CDL. The operator seemed to have some understanding of the process and said, despite her earlier statement that the tests were the same, that you would not be tested on "things that only apply to commercial drivers" [no examples given] but was unable to explain how the knowledge test would be administered in a way that redacted the "non applicable" commercial subject matter. She did, however, like the PA State Police CDL officer mentioned above, confirm that the air brakes status is a restriction and not an endorsement.

Whatever the case, I found the appropriate form to apply for the Class B learner's permit online and I will try to get more detail on the knowledge test and the physical driving test when I go to the DMV (by the way, PA Code Title 75.11 et. al. seems to set the standards for the physical driving test).

Hope this helps and if anyone already knows the answer to the knowledge test issue above, would appreciate hearing from you. Also, can anyone tell me what is involved if I decided not to register the MV as an "antique" but as a standard truck? Does an MV not registered as an antique fall within the "non commercial" designation/exception - "any motor home or recreational trailer operated solely for personal use" or does this somehow by definition convert the truck into a "commercial" vehicle thereby perhaps requiring a CDL?

Thanks, everyone.

Ficrutch