Piston Rings Worn Out, Time for a Rebuild

[Jeepsinker]

You have to get the engine to proper operating temp, then retorque the heads. I don't know what oil you are using, but the greasy sludge in the valve cover is usually paraffin or other impurities from cheap oil, or outside sources. It can also form if you have a habit of running the engine for short periods of time, where it gets up to operating temp, but the oil doesn't get hot enough to burn off the entrainment moisture, then it picks up the crap out of the oil and deposits it in the valve covers.

If you used the new style headgaskets gaskets, you must retorque both heads with the engine at operating temperature. Just ask Ferroequinologist, we found it in the latest tm.

 

[FLYWHEEL]

Well, its been about 3 months since I got the rebuild done and I'm not completely satisfied. New pistons,rings, sleeves, NOS heads, New style head gaskets and I still have blow-by coming out of my slobber tube. I also have some thick grease looking stuff on the bottom of my oil fill cap and inside the valve cover. I also seem to be losing coolant somehow and I don't know where it is going. My oil is not milky or increasing the level, so I'm not sure. I have the pump turned up pretty good and can get over 15PSI of boost, so I don't know if its a blown head gasket or what. I did a leakdown test last night and the numbers seem to be all over the place and I don't really trust that data because when i roll the engine over a little with the leak down test in progress, I can change the numbers a little bit after I stop turning the crank slightly (its hard to explain). I also did a compression check since I was right there and I got all around 340 PSI on 4 of the 6 cylinders. I didn't get a chance to check the other 2 because my copper sealing washer got stuck in one of the holes and i couldn't get it out. I was frustrated working in low light and not being able to get the sealing washer out, I needed to call it a night. I throw all this money at it in new parts because I wanted the best running Deuce and not have to work on it for a long time... and it still is not 100%. I would ask for advise but I'm really dont know what else it could be.

EGT's are a higher than they were at first as well. I can run hot just empty and it never used to be like that right after the rebuild. So that is an indication something is not right. I can get up to 1150 pulling away from a light if I take off as fast as I can. I never adjusted the fuel rate at any time before or after the rebuild, so not sure what is going on. I am not thinking that is the cause of the problem.

The only possible theory I can think of is that one of my head gaskets is leaking. When I put the head gaskets on, I used the copper spray gasket on the new gaskets. The stuff is made by Permatex. I'm sure you guys have experience using it. When I did gaskets before, I did not use the copper spray gasket stuff and put them on dry. That is the only difference. I'm at a loss on where to go. Next step I guess is bring it in the garage and loosen all of the valves and do another leakdown test where I know all of the valves are shut and see if I get any different numbers. Maybe pressurize the cooling system with 7 PSI while I am at it. I only started loosing coolant after the rebuild, so I doubt it is my oil cooler because I never touched that.

Opinions welcome I guess. I'm just so mad at the thing I almost could care less about fixing it.

Regarding blow-by, did you make sure the gaps on the piston rings were as far apart from each other as possible, as if they line up this can cause blow-by. Also do the rings have to go on a certain way up. On our engines at work our piston rings have a top face and a lower face,
some of our engines also have directional pistons. ( I'm not sure if this applies to the multifuel though.)

 

[rustystud]

Regarding blow-by, did you make sure the gaps on the piston rings were as far apart from each other as possible, as if they line up this can cause blow-by. Also do the rings have to go on a certain way up. On our engines at work our piston rings have a top face and a lower face,
some of our engines also have directional pistons. ( I'm not sure if this applies to the multifuel though.)

Almost all rings and especially diesel rings have a "Up" and "Down" on them. Also the pistons do have a proper orientation when installed. Sounds like this engine is leaking coolant into the combustion chamber. This creates steam which pushes past the rings and causes blowby leaving a milky residue on the inside of the engine, and the slobber tube. Where the heads checked for warpage ? Was the main deck checked for warpage ? Was the heads tightened down in proper sequence and torque ? ( example: tightened down to 30lbs, then down to 60lbs, then final torque) All this will cause the head gaskets to leak.

 

[skinnyR1]

Does The sludge in the valve cover look like this?

 

[cattlerepairman]

If you used the new style headgaskets gaskets, you must retorque both heads with the engine at operating temperature. Just ask Ferroequinologist, we found it in the latest tm.

Just curious - the instructions I received for the new style headgaskets were " dry install, step-by-step torque to spec and no retorque required".

 

[Jeepsinker]

That is for the old, new style headgaskets. Second generation.

 

[JasonS]

Just curious - the instructions I received for the new style headgaskets were " dry install, step-by-step torque to spec and no retorque required".

I have a few of the "new style" head gaskets (Victor 5818 ) purchased from a SS member with those same instructions. However, White/ AGCO sold those same exact head gaskets with clear instructions in their service manual that the head MUST be retorqued.

 

[Jeepsinker]

Exactly. Installation procedures were slightly modified by adding a retorque to address the issue of head gaskets blowing, even with the newest style gaskets. Just ask Ferroequinologist.

 

[cattlerepairman]

Exactly. Installation procedures were slightly modified by adding a retorque to address the issue of head gaskets blowing, even with the newest style gaskets. Just ask Ferroequinologist.

Apologies - not intending to hijack. Does "retorque" involve running the engine to operating temp, taking off valve covers and valve train and setting torque wrench to final torque (130 ft lbs for non TD, 157 for TD) and going over the head nuts at the original sequence?

 

[Jeepsinker]

That's correct.

 

[gringeltaube]

FWIW, it's 157 ft-lbs for the TD.

 

[Wildchild467]

Almost all rings and especially diesel rings have a "Up" and "Down" on them. Also the pistons do have a proper orientation when installed. Sounds like this engine is leaking coolant into the combustion chamber. This creates steam which pushes past the rings and causes blowby leaving a milky residue on the inside of the engine, and the slobber tube. Where the heads checked for warpage ? Was the main deck checked for warpage ? Was the heads tightened down in proper sequence and torque ? ( example: tightened down to 30lbs, then down to 60lbs, then final torque) All this will cause the head gaskets to leak.

We did a cooling system pressure test to 7 PSI (rated cap pressure) and it did not drop at all.... so the cooling system is tight. I added more coolant and it has not dropped, so I think I might be ok now... it was just thirsty or maybe it was seeking its own level. I think my cooling system is ok now. It seems fine and does not appear to be low on coolant.

I torqued the head down per the torque sequence and stepping up to the TD block spec (158 ft/lbs i think) and then re-torqued it again when it was warm.

 

[Wildchild467]

Almost all rings and especially diesel rings have a "Up" and "Down" on them. Also the pistons do have a proper orientation when installed. Sounds like this engine is leaking coolant into the combustion chamber. This creates steam which pushes past the rings and causes blowby leaving a milky residue on the inside of the engine, and the slobber tube. Where the heads checked for warpage ? Was the main deck checked for warpage ? Was the heads tightened down in proper sequence and torque ? ( example: tightened down to 30lbs, then down to 60lbs, then final torque) All this will cause the head gaskets to leak.

The rings were installed on the pistons when I got them. I never took them off.

 

[Wildchild467]

Does The sludge in the valve cover look like this?

No, its a dark "warm grease" kind of look. I am using rotella 15W40.

 

[Wildchild467]

I pulled the compressor belt off last night and started the engine so that the air compressor would not run. It still had blowby, so it is not the compressor causing the blowby.

 

[Wildchild467]

Another note, My rear main started leaking and now my clutch is slipping. So it is time for a new clutch now. Not fun.

I also checked my oil pressure last night with a mechanical gauge and i have about 17-18 PSI at hot idle. I used to have a lot more when I bought the truck. So my thought with pulling the fly wheel to do the clutch, I could put new main bearings in it while I am there since the flywheel needs to be taken off to get the rear main bearing out. I'm not sure how hard it would be to do or maybe the pressure relief valve on my pump is broken? The max oil pressure I get now is 60 when cold and about 40 cruising down the road. I used to get about 60 crusing down the road. Who knows. It runs, it has oil pressure, maybe I should leave it alone and stop throwing time and money at it.

 

[Jeepsinker]

Oil pressure is more affected by condition of cam bearings than crank and rod bearings. Try and find a set of new cam bearings.

 

[cattlerepairman]

If you open up the bottom of the engine, you can always plastigauge 2 or 3 main bearings (only need to loosen the brackets that hold the oil pipe to the block so that you can get the socket on). That would give you a quick estimate as to where the main bearings are, wear-wise, and then decide.

Rolling them out and new ones in is not too difficult (oil pump and all oil pipes have to come off to get to #1 bearing cap, flywheel needs to be off to get 2 bolts out and remove #7 bearing cap) and I lately saw good deals on std sized mains on an auction site. Your data plate will tell you if you need std or oversized bearings (reground crank).

 

[merlot566jka]

I only read a few pages... But, did you hone the liners? Did you follow the break in procedure from the TM? Did you happen to use synthetic oil for the first fill?

Sounds like your rings didnt seat!

 

[Jeepsinker]

I know an easy way to get the rings to seat without actually running the engine. Works with some engines that have run hot too.
Pull the injectors all out, get a quart of dex/ merc ATF and some gasoline or mineral spirits in a small squirter bottle. Squirter some ATF and a little bit of the solvent, either gas or mineral spirits into each cylinder and let it sit for maybe 30 seconds to seep into the rings, then spin the motor over for thirty seconds continuously, twice so you can let the starter cool for a bit. Then reinstall the injectors and crank it up. Either it'll work, or it wont. Doesn't work every time, but I've saved a few owners a rebuild for a while that way.