Poe Man's 1:1 hubs

[coachgeo]

@Xengineguy .... your front and rear ECO are the same design correct?


for poe folk:

aka- you have more time than money....
IMHO !!!! at your own risk

- wonder if one could only use a pair of ECO hubs? (if he is wiling to only sell a pair)
- pull your front drive shaft....
- put the ECO hubs in the rear only..
- drive in mode ONLY. Even with 5 gears of mode you will be fine with this set up*.
-- switch back to your OEM pair of hubs and reinstall drive shaft when your going off roading or hard pulling where AWD or 4wd will be needed. Give your Trans time to relearn again of course.

For more poor folk that are experienced grind a weld types ..... one can consider get same effect effect (if it that won't knacker then transmisson) by Lincoln locking two spare hubs.... Swap them in like above.. If time and experimenting makes you trust your Lincoln weld job, do all four hubs.

* Fellow bought my truck from did this. but only Lincoln locked front hubs. Pulled rear drive axles (rear pinion had an issue is why did this) put it in Mode (aka... front wheel drive) and drove from south GA to mid. MO at 70mph in AO without issue in 5th gear. Kept it that way for a year as he drove it around home town in MO... That said...... he is a welder by trade. BIG TIME welder... like oil rigs, Alaskan oil tankers, and other high responsibility/high liability type welding. He did the weld with a borrowed welding machine at a small shop in GA though. Not sure if he used stick or wire feed. For him it was a choice of find a welding maching to use or drive 30mph for rest of trip from there to MO. He found a welder to borrow.

Later dissection of transmission for other reasons, showed this front wheel drive mode trip put no undue wear on the trans. clutches. Still though I would not recommend that. Rear drive is direct drive via gears out of trans.... would not put strain on clutches like front wheel drive only would.

 

[Ronmar]

Like I said in the other posting, this will keep the center diff clutch under constant stress in mode, and Lincoln locking the hubs involves more than just cranking up the welder…

I am curious how that guy took the inner fixed gear out of the equation but still retained its function of retaining the spindle nut…

Creative people often figure out how to make things work, but the devil IS in the missed details…

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Military vehicles in general aren't really the best hobby if you haven't got money. Pick a cheaper hobby or maybe learning a marketable skill FIRST so you can have money for hobbies..... but IDK maybe I'm doing it all backwards.

The Motorpool guys I've talked to complement the reliability of the Allison transmissions in the FMTV's - the only notable failures they could recall being when some PVT ran the piss out of them without taking them out of MODE.

The quality remains long after the price is forgotten..... There's always enough money to do it right the second time..... etc, etc.

Much like carbon fiber submarines - I would recommend against this. Unless you want to be replacing a transmission to the tune of $15k.

 

[coachgeo]

Like I said in the other posting, this will keep the center diff clutch under constant stress in mode, and Lincoln locking the hubs involves more than just cranking up the welder…

I am curious how that guy took the inner fixed gear out of the equation but still retained its function of retaining the spindle nut…

Creative people often figure out how to make things work, but the devil IS in the missed details…

is the stress spoken of different stress than when in mode with all axles working as typical?

Ill look to dig them out and take pics. Several have asked.

 

[Ronmar]

is the stress spoken of different stress than when in mode with all axles working as typical?

Ill look to dig them out and take pics. Several have asked.

Same stress, but less frequent, as it is only really restrained by the clutch in mode when you would have a wheel in a place to slip...

 

[coachgeo]

...

I am curious how that guy took the inner fixed gear out of the equation but still retained its function of retaining the spindle nut…

Creative people often figure out how to make things work, but the devil IS in the missed details…

not sure if I need to go deeper..... included is modified to 1:1 hub seller of my truck used for about 3k miles. Whole assembly is NOT attached to my truck. Seller had already put new OEM hubs back in once (he thought) a person he hired to fix rear axle ; while he was away, had done a good job fixing it. I had asked him to include the welded ones when I purchased it.

First photo below a typical hub; cover removed, w/spiders on the cross etc. (stole from internet)


Below is my 1:1 modified hub, sitting on a bench face up. View is same as I saw as unbolting hub cover from whole assembly.

Notice.. no spiders... all of them and associated parts are in a bucket that was in back of truck and did not look to be used with the modified . I pulled and moved the cross over so yall could see welds better. Cross was set in place with no other pieces. When pulling this part off whole assembly it looked to be that rest below this was all normal though if needed, I could dig deeper to see if other welding is done inside. Look close and you can see the 4 heavy welds on the gear .. It is welded to inside of hub cover itself.

If this is all it is... for strength maybe be smarter to triangulate the Cross's legs to each other or Something like that? Seller (the welder) was using borrowed equipment from a shop while he was on the road... and not his own FWIW.

 

[Ronmar]

Ok, it looks like he welded the outer gear to the cap, which would tie the splined axle to the hub… but this doesn’t show how he retained the spindle nut….

 

[coachgeo]

Ok, it looks like he welded the outer gear to the cap, which would tie the splined axle to the hub… but this doesn’t show how he retained the spindle nut….

what do you want me to take picture of next? I can disassemble further down to the spindle nut. Back side gear is still in place. Looked normal to my (poor) memory so didnt dig further. Nut and shims would be below that right? Dont know if when he removed this from axle and housing if he dissasembled things and threw it in the bucket or if he removed it and reassembled how it was installed on axle and housing. Seem to recall that is what he said he did.... but that was years ago. What I have is whole thing.. all the way to the brake shoes, still assembled.... "This was on front axle".

 

[GeneralDisorder]

How is the inner gear retained on the spindle? The inner gear is normally held in place by the spider gears and held stationary by the splines on the spindle and it prevents the spindle nut from backing off by engaging the roll pins protruding from the face of the nut.

 

[Ronmar]

How is the inner gear retained on the spindle? The inner gear is normally held in place by the spider gears and held stationary by the splines on the spindle and it prevents the spindle nut from backing off by engaging the roll pins protruding from the face of the nut.

The inner gear just slides onto the splined hollow spindle. I suspect he simply relied on the spider carriers center hub to keep the inner gear flying in formation to retain the wheel bearing nut…

 

[coachgeo]

The inner gear just slides onto the splined hollow spindle. I suspect he simply relied on the spider carriers center hub to keep the inner gear flying in formation to retain the wheel bearing nut…

looking at where the welds are.. looks like it would have worked better if the welds were located better so they fall in that spot between the spiders gears. Then could retain spider gears to help hold the inner gear; thus bearing nut, firmly at home as designed.

I'll test fit the spiders in the cap for the fun off it later today after work

 

[GeneralDisorder]

The inner gear just slides onto the splined hollow spindle. I suspect he simply relied on the spider carriers center hub to keep the inner gear flying in formation to retain the wheel bearing nut…

Right - I know how the system works. I'm trying to get @coachgeo to understand what we are asking - what's keeping the inner gear from sliding out off the nut roll pins?

I don't think that would work. The roll pins are not that long and the gear would walk out off of them. But I suspect you are right - he did nothing. Ignorance and luck and lack of risk aversion.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

looking at where the welds are.. looks like it would have worked better if the welds were located better so they fall in that spot between the spiders gears. Then could retain spider gears to help hold the inner gear; thus bearing nut, firmly at home as designed.

I'll test fit the spiders in the cap for the fun off it later today after work

You can't do that. You're not envisioning how this system works. even if you moved the welds 90 degrees and put the spiders back in - with the spiders in place and the outer gear welded the entire unit would become solid and unable to rotate. The truck wouldn't move at all.

 

[Ronmar]

I think the spider hub probably would have retained the inner gear, even with the spiders and their shims installed there does not appear to be much clearance between the spider hub and the inner gear As seen in the pic Geo posted… He could have stacked shim washers there also, there should be no thrust forces there and it is wet lubed…

 

[coachgeo]

You can't do that. You're not envisioning how this system works. even if you moved the welds 90 degrees and put the spiders back in - with the spiders in place and the outer gear welded the entire unit would become solid and unable to rotate. The truck wouldn't move at all.

that kinda what I thought..... think it was another thread where it was mentioned spiders may be needed to hold inner gear..... so figured Id ask instead of assuming.

 

[coachgeo]

I think the spider hub probably would have retained the inner gear, even with the spiders and their shims installed there does not appear to be much clearance between the spider hub and the inner gear As seen in the pic Geo posted… He could have stacked shim washers there also, there should be no thrust forces there and it is wet lubed…
[pic removed for quote]

no thrust forces cause Spiders Removed?

 

[Ronmar]

no thrust forces cause Spiders Removed?

No thrust forces(outward) because the inner gear is just resting on the spindle splines with its inner face against the shims and its pins holding the wheel nut in place. If the spider gears were in place, it would have been thrust inward against the shims and wheel nut, but there is nothing on the inside that would ever thrust the inner gear outward against the rotating spider carrier with any real force. These two parts, inner gear and spider hub are naturally held apart with the gears in place, but I am not sure how much space there is actually between the two.

As General mentioned, it is a real concern that the inner gear could slide out far enough before it contacts the spider hub and it may release its hold on the wheel nut, at which time dangerous and expensive actions could happen. But since there are no real outward forces or thrust on the inner gear, if it should contact the rotating spider hub, it being a wet lubed hub, there would be no significant wear… if the gap is too far you would have to add a thrust washer/bushing to insure the inner gear pins stay engaged with the nut…

Not knowing the specific metal makeup of the hub casting, I don’t think I would rely on the hub cap to transmit all the torque to the wheel from those 4 small welds or via this configuration in general.

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Not knowing the specific metal makeup of the hub casting, I don’t think I would rely on the hub cap to transmit all the torque to the wheel from those 4 small welds or via this configuration in general.

Honestly the whole idea and the appearance of those welds isn't confidence inspiring. Welding on castings takes a very controlled environment and in general isn't advisable if you can avoid it. Pre-heating to avoid hydrogen embrittlement and then salt annealing to ensure you don't have any stress in the part that's going to lead to cracking....

That looks like Cooter welded it with 7018 and a six pack of Full Send. While probably not an issue on granddads old Chevrolet, this aint that. This is 20k lbs (or considerably more in some cases) of uncontrolled liability should something lock up or crack into four pieces and let go of the drum.....

 

[coachgeo]

Honestly the whole idea and the appearance of those welds isn't confidence inspiring. Welding on castings takes a very controlled environment and in general isn't advisable if you can avoid it. Pre-heating to avoid hydrogen embrittlement and then salt annealing to ensure you don't have any stress in the part that's going to lead to cracking....

That looks like Cooter welded it with 7018 and a six pack of Full Send. While probably not an issue on granddads old Chevrolet, this aint that. This is 20k lbs (or considerably more in some cases) of uncontrolled liability should something lock up or crack into four pieces and let go of the drum.....

the fellow who did the welding is a high end welder for massive critical projects (deep sea Oil tankers,, oil rigs etc)..... he likely new what he was doing. Again he did it with borrowed equipment though. It did go 1,000-ish miles after.

Agree though.... 4 spots certainly looks sketchy. If one was to do similar maybe make a steel cap replacement and if plan to use that gear for spline purposes instead of having one milled out.... weld it fully around in the steel cap. If going to have one milled.... then certainly makes way more sense to buy ECO unit.

 

[Ronmar]

Exactly, lots of technical hurdles...