Power Steering/Winch combo

[army70deuce]

I've read all the power steering posts and definitely want to add power steering to my M35A2. I've also read the Winch posts and want to change my stock winch to being driven by hydraulics. So here's my question.

Are there any issues I'm not seeing with running the winch and the power steering off of the same pump? I know I need a large reservoir to help with cooling. What size pump would you recommend to run both, what capacities should I be looking at? I'm assuming a standard power steering pump for a M35A3 would not be enough for both, not sure on the 5-ton.

As always, thank you for your help and all thoughts and opinions are greatly appreciated.

 

[m16ty]

A hyd winch would be nice. I've thought about installing one myself. I already have a hydrualic pump to run my dump.

The only disadvantage I see with using a power steering pump (providing it will push enough oil) is your PS wouldn't work while using your winch. I don't know if you'd really need PS while winching though.

The first thing you need to find out is how big of hyd motor you're going to need to run the winch (I could figure it up but don't remember the winch gear ratio). A 5-ton LDS pump is going to be the easiest install (it will bolt right up). I'd almost bet it's got enough pressure but I'm not sure about flow. As long as your pressure is high enough it will run the winch but if the flow (GPM) isn't enough the winch will be terribly slow. I have my doubts that a PS pump will have enough flow to decent speed out of the winch.

There is a thread around here somewhere that tells the torque required on the winch input. That would tell you how many in/lb the motor will have to be.

 

[m16ty]

After finding the winch ratio (23:1) and doing some math I came up with 1087 in/lb to get 10,000lb line pull on the first layer of cable. I also found that the stock setup has a driveshaft speed 650RPM with the PTO in low.

 

[m16ty]

I went back and edited my thread. My math was wrong. I made my calculations on a 4" drum. I thought the drum was 4" but I went out and measured a winch I had. The drum is accually 5".

Here's the rest of the motors Northern offers Hydraulic Motors + Hydraulic Motor Mounting Brackets | Hydraulics | Northern Tool + Equipment

The one I originally listed looks to be a little light as far as torque goes. All the others they list are quite a bit above 1,087 in/lb. Is the deuce winch rated for 10k pull on the first layer? I ask this because my calcutations were based on a bare drum.

 

[army70deuce]

I'm not going to say your wrong but the RPMs seem alittle high to me. So check my assumptions and we'll see if I'm missing something...if the Engine idles at 1000rpm and the transmission is in 1st gear which is probably around 5:1 (I can't find an exact gear chart so not sure) So now the output is 200 rpm so what am I missing how does it go 650rpm??

 

[mudguppy]

I went back and edited my thread. My math was wrong. I made my calculations on a 4" drum. I thought the drum was 4" but I went out and measured a winch I had. The drum is accually 5".

Here's the rest of the motors Northern offers Hydraulic Motors + Hydraulic Motor Mounting Brackets | Hydraulics | Northern Tool + Equipment

The one I originally listed looks to be a little light as far as torque goes. All the others they list are quite a bit above 1,087 in/lb. Is the deuce winch rated for 10k pull on the first layer? I ask this because my calcutations were based on a bare drum.

i've got a hydraulic PTO calculator spreadsheet. with a given 30 fpm desired line speed and a 10k# 5th layer line pull, you need:

• 516 rpm input shaft speed
• 247 ft-lbs input shaft torque
• 10.8 gpm
• 2196 psi
• 13.9 hyd hp at the motor
• 16.3 mechanical hp at the PTO
• 0.75" minimum hose/fitting diameter

this is figured using the 3.323 cu-in/rev pump and 9.7 cu-in/rev motor from Northern Tool. the calculated input shaft torque is right in line with gringle's destructive shear pin testing calculated values.

this pump/motor combo is based on the Cummins swap that i have planned and the PTO ratio is 1:1; this is different than the PTO on the Spicer, which is 1.5 and 0.667 of engine speed. PTO speed affects HP and winch speed.

 

[mudguppy]

I'm not going to say your wrong but the RPMs seem alittle high to me. So check my assumptions and we'll see if I'm missing something...if the Engine idles at 1000rpm and the transmission is in 1st gear which is probably around 5:1 (I can't find an exact gear chart so not sure) So now the output is 200 rpm so what am I missing how does it go 650rpm??

the PTO doesn't operate off of the trans gears; it is meshed with the countershaft, so gear choice is irrelevant.

 

[mudguppy]

... Hydraulic Motors + Hydraulic Motor Mounting Brackets | Hydraulics | Northern Tool + Equipment ....

i'll be using motor #1042 and pump #10585 (depending on PTO direction).

 

[army70deuce]

Mudguppy thanks for the awesome info, so here's my question, if I decide to run the pump off of the engine via belt instead of the PTO then I'll have a 1:1 ratio as well so the pump you chose should work fine with my multifuel that idles at 950-1,000rpm??

 

[Farmun]

...if I decide to run the pump off of the engine via belt instead of the PTO then I'll have a 1:1 ratio as well...

If the pulleys are the same diameter, correct?

 

[wehring]

A3 Hyd Motor

I have the motor mounting bracket, Hyd motor, reservour and lines off of an M35A3 if anyone is interested in converting their A2 winch to hyd power.

PM or call if interested


Justin Wehring
979 997 3112

 

[m16ty]

i'll be using motor #1042 and pump #10585 (depending on PTO direction).

I've already have a #10601 pump on my truck that runs the dump. It's driven off of a t-case PTO. I went with a t-case PTO to run the pump so I could run my winch off of the trans PTO. I still may go with a hyd PTO though because I've already got the pump. I looked at the pump you listed but figured it would be way overkill for what I was doing.

 

[army70deuce]

I have the motor mounting bracket, Hyd motor, reservour and lines off of an M35A3 if anyone is interested in converting their A2 winch to hyd power.

What powers the hydraulic motor? Does the A3 use the power steering pump or is there a hydraulic pump mounted to the engine?

 

[mudguppy]

... I looked at the pump you listed but figured it would be way overkill for what I was doing.

the reason i selected that pump and motor combo is because i wanted to be able to match the perfomance of the OEM PTO system (in 'Low' gear) as a max operational speed. this combo will do it at 1500 engine rpm.

my PTO will be a 1:1, which is why i'll need 1500 rpm. if you put this system on a stock Spicer set up, you could match these specs at 1000 engine rpm with the PTO in 'Hi' gear.

 

[m16ty]

I got my winch installed last week but haven't got the drive on yet. I was looking and taking measurements and I'm not sure the M35A2 radiator will allow for a direct mount hyd motor. If you can the motor will have to be less than 4" in dia. How much less I don't know. At 4" dia you'll have about 1/8" clearance between the motor and the radiator. IMO that's not enough because the truck flexes pretty good and the last thing you'd want to happen in the motor come in contact with the radiator. Has anybody accually installed a Hyd winch on a M35A2?

I'm still weighing my options. Looks like you could mount the motor beside the winch and chain drive it or run a driveshaft to get the motor back past the engine. I'm not real crazy with either of those options at the moment. If I can't come up with a better option I may just go with the standard PTO drive.

 

[jesusgatos]

How are the Canadian Deuces and the A3's set-up? Those both have hydraulic winches, right?

 

[m16ty]

I don't know about the Canadian deuces but the A3 uses a different radiator I think.

 

[jesusgatos]

...and a different engine. Just thought it might give us some ideas.