Propane on a five ton???

[pa.rich]

While yer at it hook up a line to the cab for a toasty heater/defroster! And one for the mobile barbecue. And a gas refrigerator? But gee just pick up a jet engine and mount between the frame rails.Keeps tailgators away also.Seriously, it is a good idea if someone comes up with a way to retrofit it. If it will burn more completely, and add h.p., sounds good. A mileage jump of 40 percent really would help these days. I wonder how those semi owner / operators would go for it? I hadnt heard of that combination with the diesels but they have been using it straight on the old farm tractors for decades.With all the tractor trailers and diesels in general in use now and with skyrocketing prices, theres a need for it definitely. Someone could get rich on this.Air quality should be better with the completely burned fuel too.

 

[SasquatchSanta]

Lee --- Your, and FreightTrain's posts pretty much confirm my beliefs about improving overall combustion efficiency.

It stands to reason that if combustion efficiency is increased (more fuel is burrned versus being spit out the stack) that horsepower will increase. In essence, this means, if one wants to be frugal, less throttle is required and therefore less fuel. Granted, there is going to be added costs associated with the injected propane BUT the propane adds BTUs AND if the propane makes the diesel being injected produce more BTUs via improved combustion, it looks like a win-win situation.

It sounds like the net result is either more power with the same pedal or the same power with less pedal. I hope this makes sense --- I hate it when I think out loud.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about the cooler, or perhaps "no" higher, EGTs. I also doesn't sound like there will be a problem with too much boost.

I tend to agree with you about the risks involved with building a home engineered system. A few months I read an article on the internet on how to build a boost system. I think it would work OK if all a person wanted to do was add surge horsepower for a hill but I want to pursue better economy.

Now the challenge to find a ready made system that will work on a non-computer truck.

On another note --- several years ago a friend and I were going to build, or at least try to build, a hydrogen system for one of my M37s. We figured we were going to lose around 50% of the little flathead's power but even at a 50% loss it would have been enough to run it in low gear in the local 4th of July parade. For a little showmanship we were going to mount an inverted water cooler water bottle on the right fender where the jerry can usually goes for a fuel tank. My buddy has the brains of the outfit but he ended up having a stroke and never fully recovered. The system involved having a generator in the back to start the system. Once the engine was running a large power unit ran off an oversized fan belt would take over and run the system thereby allowing the generator in the back to be shut down and the system fully sulf supporting. He had seen it done before and felt it wasn't rocket science. If successful we were going to say, "If a couple of highschool drop out rednecks can build a hydrogen system on a 50 year old vehicle why can't Ford or GM do it? Anyway, when he had medical problems the project died.

Hummmm --- I wonder if you could convert a multi over to hyd........ oh never mind.

 

[kinetichotshot]

Years ago I remember having propane injection on our old Ford ranch truck. The power increase was great (you definitely knew when you ran out of propane) and it seem like that truck would go forever on a tank of diesel and propane. Now as an independent truck driver I considered doing this to my road truck. the basic conclusion that I came to after much research was that if more power is what you are after, go propane. If more economy is what you are after, stay away because even though your diesel mileage will increase the added expense of the propane almost directly offsets the savings of the increased mileage. There are many providers of kits out there and I believe that if you look at BullyDog website there is a very good explanation of the benefits/detriments of these systems.
Hope this helps..
Laterz,
Gator
>|--|~

 

[DanMartin]

Wouldn't propane be incompatible with the flame powered intake heaters on the multifuels?

 

[joec]

propane isn't something you use all the time. it is used for short burst's of power. Not contionious use.

 

[SasquatchSanta]

joec sez:

propane isn't something you use all the time. it is used for short burst's of power. Not contionious use

Yes --- That has always "been" the case. BUT, if propane increases overall efficiency I'm thinking a conservatively calibrated pre-turbo injection "might" enhance fuel economy.

Things change --- diesel fuel hasn't always been $3.79/9 a gallon.

With the LDS engine I don't need more power. More economy ... now that's another story.

So far, outside of the bother, the only drawback I've been able to find is that propane tends to dry an engine out a little. Whether that might equate to long term liner problems down the road remains to be seen?

If I can find the time this summer I want to play around with it. I don't get in a hurry, if not this summer then next.

 

[pa.rich]

Back in the 70's during the gas rationing, many gasoline engines were swithched to propane, just propane. Is it that the gasoline engines can take the increased btu's better than the diesels? Seems that if the diesels can take the force of compression ,turning to heat and ignition without spark, you would think that they could take the propane even as a20 percent addition to the diesel. I wish someone knew. Propane is expensive but for the added h.p. and cleaner burn, might be worth it. Coming from a person thats not an engine "guru" .Possibly straight propane versus gasoline isnt more btu, but I would bet propane vs diesel is far higher btu. Hence the risk, I suppose.

 

[SasquatchSanta]

From what I remember propane is lower in BTUs than both Diesel and Gas.

Changing a gas rig over to propane costs horsepower.

I believe it's the added combustion efficiency that propane brings to the table in a diesel that give it its punch.

I also believe that I know just enough to get myself in trouble.

 

[kinetichotshot]

Actually, on the old Ford and on most of the "Propane injection kits" that are commercially available now the propane is NOT a "nitrous shot" It is constantly fed and on the better systems the flow is controlled by the throttle position to keep you 'mix' consistent so that you have even power delivery throughout.
Laterz,
Gator
>|--|~

 

[amanco]

On another note --- several years ago a friend and I were going to build, or at least try to build, a hydrogen system for one of my M37s. .... He had seen it done before and felt it wasn't rocket science. If successful we were going to say, "If a couple of highschool drop out rednecks can build a hydrogen system on a 50 year old vehicle why can't Ford or GM do it? Anyway, when he had medical problems the project died.

Hummmm --- I wonder if you could convert a multi over to hyd........ oh never mind.

Here is a company that does just that:

http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com/?hop=c20589

When I first saw it I figured that it was another one of those cheesy water injection systems, but no! It is an actual hydrogen generator that supplements your fuel intake and works on diesel engines as well. The youtube videos are great! Maybe GM & Ford will consider it!

As I have said before necessity is the mother of invention and these high fuel costs are going to bite the hand that feeds them. Let em jack the fuel prices a bit more and the inventors will knock the bottom right out of the oil market. Maybe right after the '08 election??? I'm just say'n.

 

[ygmir]

a friend, and memeber here, uses propane injection on his Ford Powerchoke..........hahaha,
Anyway,
He claims more h.p., and, lower EGT's.........greater fuel economy, too. The propane is supposed to act as someone earlier stated, an oxidizer, making the diesel burn more completely. I'm sure it adds a minimal amount of power itself ,but, it's major action, IIRC, is that it catalizes the diesel/oxygen reaction.

Maybe he'll chime in, Dieselsmoke?......he is very smart and has a fair amount of experience at this sort of thing.

good luck

 

[BobS]

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/pdfs/fueltable.pdf

EPA "Properties Of Fuels" table listing the compared latent heat properties of various fuels. For referance.

Best regards,

Bob

 

[BobS]

Addendum: An explanation of the "how's" and "why's".... http://www.mrsharkey.com/lpg.htm

Best as always,

Bob

 

[stampy]

I bought a propane injection system for my 109 I will let you guys know how it works (with pictures ) when I get a chance to put it on. I already have a 20lb Forklift tank

 

[thedeliverator]

Propane and water/methanol injection systems work by providing air charge cooling. Cooler air is more dense, so you get more into the cylinder, so you can combust more fuel. Propane is a fuel, not an oxidizer like nitrous, and too much of it will start to displace air.

Of the two, I would favor water/methanol injection over propane. There is a lot of data supporting increased power with WMI, going back to piston aircraft engines in WWII. I've yet to see real numbers for propane injection, and I'd worry about predetonation (knocking).

 

[Sumoman]

Try HHO

You may want to look at HHO as an alternative. Make a unit or buy a GOOD one, either way you just use distilled water and KOH, mix in some power from the electrical system and create an explosive gas. Commonly this is used as a welding torch set up, simply add this to the air intake and it will combine when the fuel burns.

HHO burns at about 40,000 feet per second whereas regular fuel about 7000, this gives you a catalyst in a sense, allowing for a cleaner and more powerful burn thereby increasing power. People have been putting these on cars and using map sensors to lean the mixture basically saving gas. In the case of our MV's this would be an added catalyst (vs Propane) which does not require any modification to the vehicle and only a a few wires here and there which can be removed later if needed.

Do not buy a cheap-O version, PM me if interested and I will give you some opinions on where to buy, and what to look for. You can build one of these if you have the tools and a shop, I just find it easier to buy and have them shipped. Versions for trucks like these are of called a DRY HHO, and take a little longer to "fire up" but produce more fuel. Hope it helped.

 

[m139h2otruck]

Any links on this "HHO"?