Pumps

[jrosbo]

Well I saved them from the crusher and now I am in the learning process on how to make them work. I had the yellow one running until it lost the fuel pump. Trip to Napa in the morning. They both have Chrysler flat head 6 's in them. It says model IND-8A, type 524 on the tag on the side of the block. Kinda reminds me of the ones in the W/C 37. Does anybody have any knowledge on this type of engine and are they the same?

 

[emmado22]

Make sure you put a running garden hose into the INTAKE side of the water pump when its running, or else you'll burn up the pump, leaving you with a siezed pump.

 

[rizzo]

I could use something like that for my mudbogs.

 

[jrosbo]

pumps

Run a garden hose in there, ok got it. I assumed that since the bearings had grease jerks that it would be OK. Anybody know where I can get manuals on this? I can't find anything anywhere. Anybody know the M number? Anything?

 

[emmado22]

The bearings need grease, the pump itself uses water as a lube, and to cool itself..


Running the pump without water is like running an engine without oil... They will run, but not for long......

Whats the NSN on the thing, I might have the TM's for it....

Mark

 

[papercu]

pumps

Could be Air Force or maybe something the Forestry put together. The trailer tongue has been changed on the yellow/lime one, hasn't it?
Here is one I saw at a sale a while back.
The 3/4 t red trailer had a brass(?) data plate with the following info: Dept of Air Force, Trailer, Fire Pumper 2 Wheel 500GPM Hale Fire Pump 5-26-52 Wayne

 

[CGarbee]

RE: pumps

Local VFD near me used to have a M101 with a pump/tank combination in it that they stored at the farm (along with the M37 brush truck that pulled it) since we were much closer to the National Park than the fire house. Saved them lots of time if they drove to the farm then got into the M37/M101 and drove the rest of the way. Trailer also had storage for picks/axes/shovels and Indian backpack sprayers...
Looked a lot like the yellow unit at the start of this thread, but with racks on the sides for the hand pumps and a big toolbox accross the front for the tools...

 

[jrosbo]

pump

I don't think the tounge has been changed, seems like I have seen these before. But it could have been. It does have the brass tag on it and it says Army Corp. and the rest of the info is the same. It doesn't say NSN number but it does say stock list number which is 58-9050-700-910 which you can barely make out in the photo below. It does have a few odd and end mounting locations, wing nuts, clamps, etc. It has a long rod that you can use for hand cranking the engine if you are man enough to do it, it goes through the hole in the front of the fuel tank as can be seen in the picture from papercu. It has wooden side boards that go up on the sides which you can't see in the pictures because I have not put them on yet. Emmado if you have manuals that would be awsome! And thanks for the heads up on the water deal to. Who ever used it last drained all the fluids, changed the oil, and filled the pump with antifreeze and some kind of lubricant. I only ran it for a couple of minutes because of the way the cooling system is designed. The tank above the fuel tank in paercu picture is full of antifreeze. There is two lines that run from that tank to the pump. The pump circulates the water you are pumping through cooling coils inside the tank which cools the antifreeze and the engine. Anyway keep the info coming. It is appreciated. Also the fuel pump is a no go. It is an AC fuel pump that is no longer made. I ended up ordering a special rebuild kit for it that is $47.00 dollars from a guy that specializes in obsolete parts.

 

[papercu]

Here a few more pictures of the pump.
There was two trailers for sale that day. I only had enough cash for one so I took the the Ben-hur home.

http://ImageEvent.com/wharris19/militarytrucks/militarytrailers/twotrailers

 

[jrosbo]

Hose

Ok I got the pump to run, now I am having problems keeping it primed. I think it is because I need discharge hoses to achieve the proper back pressure. Anybody know of that is true? Anybody got 2-1/2" fire hose they want to sell?

 

[emmado22]

As long as you have enough water going in, it doesnt matter if there is any hose or anything on the discharge side... If you do have hose, then you get to deal with friction loss and how to calculate it so you get the desired pressure at the end of the hose by pumping the pump at a higher flow.

Make sure the antifreeze tank is full. That is what "pulls the prime" When your out or antifreeze, you get no prime.. Once you have the prime, you dont need it anymore.

Suck some air into the intake = loose your prime, everytime.... Check your rubber gaskets on the hard suction hose.. If they are missing/cracked, your not gonna get a good seal.. No good seal = air sucked into the pump = not good.

You may want to find some Firefighter that drives a pumper.. He can assist you.. if I was closer, I would....

I dont have the TM's for this pump. Try calling Hale... They might have it. Firefighting manufacturers for some reason keep old items arround for historical purposes....
www.haleproducts.com


Let us know what happens. Post more pics of it, especially the pump itself, and the controls.

 

[jrosbo]

Prime

Ok my intake seals are ok as well as the line. Please explain the antifreeze thing more. I don't understand what the antifreeze has to do with the prime. When I go through the steps on the tag on how to prime it, it all goes well until I open the discharge valve, I can open it a little and it immediatley starts to loose its prime. When I pull the handle and open the valve it says to open it blows steam out the bottom.

 

[emmado22]

When you think your ready to open the discharge, DONT for another 5 seconds.. Usually, you loose the prime when its almost primed. make sure you got a good prime.. The steam thing puzzles me... You mean real steam, or just bubbly water?

Post some pics.... That will help.

If your mildy interested, look for a book on ebay or Amazon called "Introduction to Fire Pump Operations" by Thomas Sturtevant.. The 1st (outdated) edition will suit you fine. Go to a local library, see what you can find on Fire Pumps.. or better yet, your local Fire Dept...

Sounds like the antifreeze is part of the priming pump that primes the main pump.. Without pics, this is just a possibility... Even on today's fire engines, they have smaller pumps that create the prime in the main pump.. Why antifreeze?? Cause it doesnt freeze, and is a decent lube that plays well with water. Doesnt burn, either...

 

[jrosbo]

prime

The antifreeze is in a sealed tank above the fuel tank in the front of the motor. It is for the motor only. It does have lines frome the tank to the pump but that is for the cooling coils in the tank. THe antifreeze never touches outside water. When you pull one of the priming levers it closes of the exhaust and opens another chamber that blows out the bottom of the exhaust manifold. Then you open another valve that has a line running to the lower chamber from the pump body. I guess it is where the air from the pump bleads out. But while you are doing this it blows steam out of the bottom. After you go through all the steps it does what the directions says it should until you start opening the main discharge line, it starts loosing its prime and finally stops.

 

[emmado22]

Ahhh.. So you got an exhuast primed unit... Forget what I said about the antifreeze stuff then.. Are you priming at idle speed???? Higher RPM's durring priming doesnt make it work faster... Also, how far is the water surface that your trying to pump from? The longer the length, the harder it is to pull a prime..
If all is working well, then perhaps the impellers on the pump are trashed... If so, then the game is pretty much over unless you want to rebuild the pump...

Call Hale, see if they can scare you up a manual.
Good Luck!

 

[jrosbo]

prime

It says to pull the throttle out until the engine fluctuates which it only does with the exhaust valve open. I have twenty feet of intake line and I may be about 5 feet above the water. You can watch the hose drop under the weight of the water as it is filling which it does rather quickly. That is why I think the imp. is fine, and the problem is with the operator. I will try again in the morning, thanks for your help.

 

[CloverFireCo]

RE: prime

First see if you can get the pump closer to the water and only use one of the suction hoses. One less joint to worry about leaking air. It does not take a huge air leak to ruin a good prime. If you think a specific joint in the suction hose is leaking you can try wrapping duct tape around it to get a temporary seal.

Usually when I am priming a fire pump, as soon as I hear the water hit the pump where you can hear the engine start straining I will crack open an outlet to leave out the air on the pressure side of the pump. Water usually starts moving slowly through the pump until all of the air is gone, then it will take off and pump like crazy. A check valve on the outlet helps a lot, will allow pressurized water to come out but not suck air back in when trying to prime.

If you are getting steam out of the pump you are very near to a big explosion. A centrifugal pump can create enough heat to flash water to steam, if there is no place for the steam to go it can destroy the pump in a spectacular fashion.

If you are having alot of problems getting a prime, you probably have an air leak in the suction line. Keep that in mind whenever trying to prime, it is your biggest enemy.

Chris

And if all that made no sense, sorry.

 

[CloverFireCo]

RE: prime

Ok, I read your reply much more carefully about where the steam was coming from, yes when priming with an exaust primer it does steam on the outlet of that chamber, steam and little droplets of water will come out.

 

[jrosbo]

prime

I didn't get a chance to try the pump this morning. My son got sick so I have to take him to the doctor. I hope to get back in time to try this evening before it gets dark. Thanks for the help.

 

[NEIOWA]

RE: prime

Call your local Fire chief and ask if they have an experinced FF/engine operator that might help you. Offer to make unit available in emergency situation for tanker fill or dewatering ops. FD is good friend to have.