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Questions, 5-ton, TX-Specific

TX_Dj

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Howdy Fellas...

Before I go on, let me say I've been lurking here a while, and have searched quite a bit. However as beneficial as the vast knowledge shared in these forums is, it sometimes can make it a little different to find specific answers for questions I'm certain have been asked before.

Please keep in mind that most of my questions are Texas Specific, and while I can appreciate the want to put information for other states for people who may be searching that information, that very practice is what's made it somewhat difficult for me to find the specific answers I require. Sorry! :D

1) Unloaded, no trailer, no "historic" plates, is it legal in TX for me to drive an M818 on a Class C license? Technically it is under 26,000 lbs in this configuration, but I suspect because it has a GVWR or GCWR in excess of 26,000 lbs it wouldn't matter one bit. This leads me to believe that in an "uncombined" single-vehicle configuration, I would require at least a Class B to legally operate it. I don't want historic plates because I don't want to be limited in the number of miles I can legally operate the vehicle per year, though at this point I do not foresee that I would exceed that limitation anytime soon.

2) If I require a Class B or Class A in Texas, and because the truck (and any trailer attached) would be personally owned, and not operated for profit, could I qualify under the Non-CDL Exemption as a Recreational Vehicle? This seems the only provision under the exemption which would seem to somewhat match my situation. I've found verbiage in the law a few years back that said in order for a vehicle to be considered an RV it must have a sleeping berth, galley, and bathroom facilities at a minimum. Obviously an M818 isn't going to meet those requirements.

3) If I got a Non-CDL exemption for the higher classes of license, would it be at all possible that my donation of time, equipment, and fuel would be also exempt from CDL provisions if donated to a not-for-profit entity? I am a member of a car club that does quite a number of shows per year, but not all members have the ability to transport their vehicles to the show. If I could somehow provide transport for a few of their vehicles for these shows, without receiving any compensation, would this still qualify under the Non-CDL exemption, as I'm transporting property which does NOT belong to me?

Ultimately, I have no qualms with getting the CDL, it's just that I don't want to pay extra (and the extra requirements) to get the CDL if I can operate without it in a legal fashion. The main concern here is that (like so many of us, I'm sure) I do occasionally get a ticket that can be dismissed via an accredited defensive driving class, and in TX if you possess a CDL you cannot take a defensive driving class, even if you were not operating a commercial vehicle when cited. This is, quite honestly, the only thing which has prevented me from simply getting a CDL already.

I really want a 5-ton, not that I have anything against the dueces, and I will likely own one (or more) some day, and I also have had an M715 at the top of my want list for a decade or so. I would really like to have the ability to load a deuce and a 715 on a trailer and haul it to a show or event with the 818 and be completely within the law, in addition to the scenario #3 above.

Now for my only two non-TX-Specific question in this post:
4) I have not seen diagrams for the drivetrain in the 809-series trucks. Is the T-case a divorced unit, or integrated to the transmission? It seems that this truck is lacking enough ratios to perform well while under load, and it would be quite nice, I think, to drop an RTO 10-speed in place. I figure the engine must be using a standard SAE bell housing/flywheel/clutch configuration, so I figure mating the transmission to the engine is a no-brainer. The real question is, would I still be able to run the T-case with such a swap, and has anyone done something like this?

5) Are there any lockers available for the 5-ton axles? Honestly, I'll admit, I haven't searched on this yet. If so, is it acceptable to lock all 3 axles, or would you want to keep one of the drive axles unlocked? Regardless of all the above, and regardless of whether a 2.5 or 5 is my first MV, I'm going to want to play in the dirt, and I can't stand to play in the dirt without lockers and a winch. ;)

Thanks in advance guys, I really appreciate all the great knowledge I've already picked up from the forum.
 

Alredneck

Banned
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TN
According to the DOT as longs as you are using the truck unloaded or loaded for " personal use " you dont have to have a CDL. But that is the federal qoute, the states seem to add to the federal law whenever they want cause some states exclude the personal use exemption. As for historic plates, to drive your truck more just say your doing a maintnance run. I do that alot cause im only supposed to drive on weekends and MV specific things like parades and stuff. Becareful with the car show thing as well cause even if you get a award the law considers that compensation and would require you to have the CDL. How stupid is that? Yes 5ton can have lockers, you can buy detroit lockers on the net. If your at a salvage yard, look into Marine Corp trucks and wreckers for your best bet. Others will chime in here to. Goodluck
 

TX_Dj

New member
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Texas, Plano
Tnx for the quick response. The kind of car shows we do aren't the kind where awards are given. These are electric/alternative fuel vehicles that are taken to events to generate awareness for those types of vehicles, not as a competition. I know, I do see (and love) the irony of towing "green" vehicles with a "green" vehicle of a completely different meaning. ;)

I would probably just go ahead and get the CDL to be safe, but like I said I don't want to shoot myself in the foot for those rare occasions when I could have a ticket dismissed, and the extra cost and regulation of the CDL.

The law in texas seems to be hard to determine via web, I've scoured the code for various reasons of the years, and in some cases (like this) it seems to be a little fuzzy. It's impossible to find information on the web as to how I can get tested/licensed for a non-CDL Class A/B license. I know the process is very similar to CDL, but I can't even find if they expect me to supply a vehicle of that type to have a "ride-along" test... and if they do, I can't find if they expect me to drive it myself, or provide someone who is qualified to do so. Or even if they expect me to have a suitable trailer for such a test if I'm going for Class A.

It's still at least a year out before I can justify the expense of a 5-ton, but I'd like to get settled with the law before that time. I'm just too darn honest of a guy to not feel bad by bending the laws. But then again, if they'll let me take the 818 unloaded under Class C, that's likely to keep me satisfied for a long time.

Thanks for the answer about the locker availability, I was pretty sure they were available, but not certain. Still not entirely sure if locking both drives would cause a problem on hard pavement.
 

M813rc

Well-known member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
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Location
Near Austin, Texas
Welcome aboard!

Here are some brief answers-
1) No, you cannot legally operate an M818 on a Class C in Texas; it is all about the GVW, not what you weigh at the time. For what you want to do, you will need a Class A

2) What you want to ask for is the Ag exemption. If you tell them you want to be licensed to drive a personally owned farm truck that is not for hire, or a volunteer fire truck, they will get you the right one. With that license you can drive virtually anything so long as you do not get paid by someone else. Winning a prize at a show wouldn't count as getting paid in Texas. You can transport property belonging to someone else so long as you receive zero compensation (ie in return for cash or goods).

Getting a Class A is pretty easy- you study your material, take the written and driving tests (includes air brake quiz, etc) and you are done. Oh, and pay your monies...

Before you ask, NO, you cannot take the driving test in an MV. The vehicle you test in MUST meet State Inspection standards even if the truck you own doesn't have to. Most MV's, if not all, do not meet the standards (maybe the newer MTV stuff might). Your best bet is to borrow or rent a truck.

Tip of the day- do not drive the test truck to the testing location to get your license! Get someone appropriately licensed to drive you there. They do watch, and they will write you a ticket if you drive it in yourself. Ask friends of mine how they found this out..:p

Cheers

Edit- Saw your message above after I posted- no, you do not need to bring a trailer
Edit 2- They changed that, now you DO need to bring a trailer!
 
Last edited:

trooper632

Member
533
3
18
Location
Utopia, TX
You WILL need at least a NON-CDL Class B license to drive the m818 with trailer with a GVWR less than 10001 pounds. If you are going to pull a trailer over 10001 lbs GVWR than you will need at least a Class A NON-CDL. The non-CDL's are for instance "farmers" who are not in commerce. To keep out of the FMCSR's (federal regulations) you would need to register the truck as a farm truck (GVWR less than 48001 lbs), this is for texas laws. you will also be exempt for the air brake endorsement due to the air/hydraulic brake system. Hope this helps.
 

TX_Dj

New member
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Location
Texas, Plano
Guys, thanks again for the quick answers. That seems to jive with what I'm understanding as well. Good to know I shouldn't take the test with an MV, and I figured that if I had to supply a truck I'd have to have someone previously licensed to bring it to the testing location. There are places around here that will let you rent their trucks.

Rory, you mention I wouldn't need to bring a trailer, but I thought that trailer operations were supposed to be part of the Class A? I don't think they test for backing, but I figured they'd want to make sure that I can explain the brakes or something as part of the "quiz", and to make sure I can negotiate streets and traffic with the trailer attached. I have a lot of experience with trailers, but nothing quite so heavy or long. I'm sure I'll have no problem with it, when I do get a trailer.

Also, in regards to the farm stuff- 1) I don't have a farm, 2) I don't have any property to even say that it might be a farm, 3) Doesn't the farm truck plate (and the non-CDL exemption) require me to stay within 150 miles of "home" even in Texas?

I will occasionally want to go a little farther than that.

Also, I think I may have answered my own question about the transmission and t-case, looking at TM 9-2320-260-20a it does appear to be a divorced case, and appears to possibly be a SAE pattern for the bell housing and associated bits. But, there's a "de-clutch piping" assembly for the t-case that appears to connect to the transmission. I'm not sure how that works, I guess for using the tcase low range to get moving and then "shift on the fly" into high range. While I'm not one of those guys who likes to cut up classic or collectible vehicles, I've watched a lot of video (and read a lot too) of 809-series trucks, and it really seems that 2-3 and 3-4 are a big ratio jump, and seem to cause guys trouble with keeping a speed while pulling anything. Something like an RTO 10-speed would give me everything I suspect using low range would (imagine the crawl ratio in Low-Low with 10-speed) but also a smaller gap between gears overall, which could help with pulling. Again, not looking to exceed the design limitations of the truck's top speed, just looking to get on the power band when the stock transmission is behind the curve. Anybody done something like that?

Thanks for the help, guys... y'all are great!
 

runk

Active member
542
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Location
Houston, TX
Your license and the truck's registration are separate. For the truck, look for Texas form VTR-52a (although, I think the Former Military Vehicle registration may be better for us...). The distance limitation is on your exemption from needing a CDL, this is explained in detail in the Texas DPS document about the farm related exemptions.
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/cve/cmvlaw/Farm/Farm_Guide.doc

I looked into a CDL as well, and have the same problem with occasional "inattention to speed"...:roll:
 

NDT

Well-known member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
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Camp Wood/LC, TX
Welcome to the site. You might want to check out a thread I started about this very subject, called "Compliance with DOT???". You for sure need a Class A non-CDL to operate the truck-tractor. The test for the Class A CDL and Class A non-CDL is the same. In Texas, a 818 has to be registered with the Texas DOT because it has a GVWR over 26001 lbs, and since having written the "Compliance with DOT" thread, the law in Texas changed on Sept 1, requiring Federal (FMCSA) DOT registration as well. Hobby use is not exempted, period (I spoke with various DOT folks in Austin about this). A $750,000 liability policy is also required by federal law. The cheapest I could find was Progressive at $200/month. It's ugly, but it's the law. Fortunately we have the Former Military Registration which will save you huge $$$ over regular registration for a 60,000 GVW combination. Don't get caught hauling cars with farm tags!!!! DPS is on the lookout for those abuses.
 

Ol-Paint

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Marinette, WI
Guys, thanks again for the quick answers. That seems to jive with what I'm understanding as well. Good to know I shouldn't take the test with an MV, and I figured that if I had to supply a truck I'd have to have someone previously licensed to bring it to the testing location. There are places around here that will let you rent their trucks.

Rory, you mention I wouldn't need to bring a trailer, but I thought that trailer operations were supposed to be part of the Class A? I don't think they test for backing, but I figured they'd want to make sure that I can explain the brakes or something as part of the "quiz", and to make sure I can negotiate streets and traffic with the trailer attached. I have a lot of experience with trailers, but nothing quite so heavy or long. I'm sure I'll have no problem with it, when I do get a trailer.

Also, in regards to the farm stuff- 1) I don't have a farm, 2) I don't have any property to even say that it might be a farm, 3) Doesn't the farm truck plate (and the non-CDL exemption) require me to stay within 150 miles of "home" even in Texas?

--SNIP--
Thanks for the help, guys... y'all are great!
Actually, they do test backing with a trailer, for a Class A--or did when I tested several years ago. Among other things you would be required to do during the driving test is to parallel park the tractor-trailer combination. Generally speaking, you are probably better off backing the truck up in a straight line without trying to parallel park, since hitting the curb is an automatic failure, while backing in a straight line only gets some points docked. And, yes, as far as I know, you need to bring a trailer if you are testing for the Class A. You can test for a Class B in a semi-tractor without the trailer.

What I haven't figured out is whether there's a way to register a truck as a non commercial vehicle under 26,001lb without going the commercial route or via farm tags. The farm tags have a mileage limit (I think your 150mi distance is correct) and the military vehicle registration is not unlike "antique" plates with the limitations on usage. For some reason, the vehicle code doesn't seem to think there's any reason a private person might want to own a truck for hauling their own stuff.

Douglas
 

TexAndy

Active member
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Location
Bee County, Texas
Welcome to the site. You might want to check out a thread I started about this very subject, called "Compliance with DOT???". You for sure need a Class A non-CDL to operate the truck-tractor. The test for the Class A CDL and Class A non-CDL is the same. In Texas, a 818 has to be registered with the Texas DOT because it has a GVWR over 26001 lbs, and since having written the "Compliance with DOT" thread, the law in Texas changed on Sept 1, requiring Federal (FMCSA) DOT registration as well. Hobby use is not exempted, period (I spoke with various DOT folks in Austin about this). A $750,000 liability policy is also required by federal law. The cheapest I could find was Progressive at $200/month. It's ugly, but it's the law. Fortunately we have the Former Military Registration which will save you huge $$$ over regular registration for a 60,000 GVW combination. Don't get caught hauling cars with farm tags!!!! DPS is on the lookout for those abuses.
Not to gravedig, but I haven't found a better place to ask this:

Are you sure about this? I was under the impression that both insurance and inspection requirements were waived with a FMV registration... or is this a special insurance requirement that isn't affected by FMV exemption?

I just got a 5 ton wrecker at auction and I'm really excited about it, but there's no way I can justify $200/month insurance on something I would only drive 1,000 miles a year... at most.
 

Westex

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El Paso, TX
TexAndy---without going into alot of detail, check out the "Machinery" license plate available from TXDOT. Cost you $5.00 per year. The picture of the CAT articulating loader on the TXDOT site weighs a heck of a lot more than your wrecker. Carry water well parts with you.
 

TexAndy

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TexAndy---without going into alot of detail, check out the "Machinery" license plate available from TXDOT. Cost you $5.00 per year. The picture of the CAT articulating loader on the TXDOT site weighs a heck of a lot more than your wrecker. Carry water well parts with you.
Cool, thanks! How about insurance? Does "machinery" require $750k commercial liability insurance?
 

Westex

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El Paso, TX
Cool, thanks! How about insurance? Does "machinery" require $750k commercial liability insurance?
This I do not know. I was not posting in jest. I know a guy in West Texas who has a giant truck who does indeed service wells. And lift steel roof beams onto ranch houses. And do an assortment of things with the truck. But it is mainly a well service truck. He helped me with some .....shipping container placement. He runs machinery plates. I can question him about insurance if you like, but it will take me some time to get the reply. If you would like, PM me. We have a common friend at Fort Sam. His name starts with a C. Out.
 

fasttruck

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You have correctly identified the problem of changing the transmission in a m809: the air controls between the transmission and transfer case that orient the transfer to which direction of travel the transmission is in. If you are going to delete the transfer and front wheel drive to accomodate a rt910 you might as well get a different truck. Perforemance is inproved bny starting in 2nd low and working up to 5th low, then shift transfer into high and transmission into fourth and then fifth. down shift same way: makes 6 gears and fills in some of the gaps in the gear ratios. Hauled fork lifts, howetzers, other trucks etc with a m818 for last nine years in service with little mechanical trouble fgrom driveline.
 

XM 2742

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I'm not sure if a Tx intra State CDL would be a bit simpler but it's worth a look. Farmers get a seasonal intra state CDL for their equipment to avoid a federal hassel and drive in Tx. only.
 

EMD567

Driver for the Ga Mafia
Steel Soldiers Supporter
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Aiken SC
One thing that everyone has missed is in order to get a class "A" with a combination endorsement( to haul a trailer), You will have to pass the air brake test, and pretrip a combination vehicle. All the states are required to test you on that part of the exam. All states require a straight back of at least 100'. After that, the test varies. Georgia makes you parallel park, South Carolina wants a alley back to a dock.
 

TexAndy

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Ok, in doing a little more research on the "machinery" registration... I don't know if it would fly.

From the txdps website:

Machinery Registration

All machinery type vehicles, except farm tractors and implements of husbandry, when operated over any public highway, will be required to display a current registration plate or a "MACHINERY" license plate.

Cost of these plates is $5.00 per year.

This includes machinery used exclusively for the purpose of drilling water wells or construction machinery that is not designed to transport persons or property on a public highway.
I would think that part right there would disqualify a wrecker, as it is designed to transport property, even though my actual use for it would be more like as a crane truck.
 
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