- 10,458
- 6,532
- 113
- Location
- Camp Wood/LC, TX
The best way to dispose of the gauges is to put them on ebay! People are looking for those to complete authentic restorations.
-
Steel Soldiers now has a few new forums, read more about it at: New Munitions Forums!
Radioactive Deuce?
- Thread starter SEAFIRE
- Start date
x-ray
New member
- 141
- 1
- 0
- Location
- Brockport, NY
Edited to add - (I just saw the post about the ebay option, technically that can be done, but should be done responsibly noting its radium content - just like radium watches and dials on ebay - technically still legal, but watch the shipping -- do it in DOT compliance. )
Oddly enough sealed sources of radium-226 when considered a waste is difficult to dispose of, despite being common in commercial vintage products.
Currently there are a few legal options for disposition. There is one landfill in Richland, Washington run by US Ecology. It is expensive.
The other is to contact The US Orphan source recovery Program, after 9/11 the US government didn't think it was so cool to have so many radioactive sources in the wild and they can be collected, think of it as a local hazmat day in a town for radioactive sources. you contact them, you describe your source and activity, you get in line and they collect it.
http://osrp.lanl.gov/faqs.shtml
If you have a regional or state radiological health agency In Texas, its the Texas Department of Health Services and they have a very good radiologically saavy staff. http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/radiation/ram.shtm (lots of industrial radiographers using radioactive sources to image pipes and oil lines, etc.) They can give you guidance. sometimes they collect it as a good neighbor service. Sometimes they make mountains out of mole hills, Being Texas, they are probably more practical than NY or california.
In california, a question about a radioactive aircraft gauge turned into a multi million dollar cleanup. But that is california
Technically if the exemptions are still listed in your regional regs, there may be an exemption to own the source without license, but that is just to own it, not dispose of it. So technically it can be owned somewhere indenfinately by someone but not disposed of - Like a radium wrist watch. If its thrown out, it needs to follow disposal laws. If accidentally thrown out, it may be detected at many of the landfill radioactive sensors and the state will try to investigate it. Many of these items get found that way.
In all reality the risk to health is pretty small from such devices, the radium is radium oxide, mixed with a phosphorescent paint, and painted into the dials on the gauges. Radium emits alpha, beta and some gamma and the exposure rate may be 1-2 mR/hour on the gauge itself. So exposure wise, its measurable, but at the drivers position, its negligible and It will generally be contained in the gauge and not contaminate your hand although it can creep if damaged over years. But Not much different than radioactive coleman lantern mantels you would handle with your bare hands and washing your hands would relive you of contamination. All = low risk and a greatly exaggerated concern of government in my opinion. Like lead, radium came naturally from the ground, but **** if anyone will let you put it back in the ground from which it came oddly enough.
Technically if it was to be retrieved not as waste but merely as a previously enjoyed radioactive device that is being owned for its intended purpose, you don't need special license to retrieve and own it. If its been designated as waste, then technically it need to be managed by someone licensed as a Transporter-Storer-Disposal-Facilitator TSDF.
Many aircraft mechanics and pilots deal with radioactive gauges in repair (less now than decades ago) but it can be done.
Oddly enough sealed sources of radium-226 when considered a waste is difficult to dispose of, despite being common in commercial vintage products.
Currently there are a few legal options for disposition. There is one landfill in Richland, Washington run by US Ecology. It is expensive.
The other is to contact The US Orphan source recovery Program, after 9/11 the US government didn't think it was so cool to have so many radioactive sources in the wild and they can be collected, think of it as a local hazmat day in a town for radioactive sources. you contact them, you describe your source and activity, you get in line and they collect it.
http://osrp.lanl.gov/faqs.shtml
If you have a regional or state radiological health agency In Texas, its the Texas Department of Health Services and they have a very good radiologically saavy staff. http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/radiation/ram.shtm (lots of industrial radiographers using radioactive sources to image pipes and oil lines, etc.) They can give you guidance. sometimes they collect it as a good neighbor service. Sometimes they make mountains out of mole hills, Being Texas, they are probably more practical than NY or california.
In california, a question about a radioactive aircraft gauge turned into a multi million dollar cleanup. But that is california
Technically if the exemptions are still listed in your regional regs, there may be an exemption to own the source without license, but that is just to own it, not dispose of it. So technically it can be owned somewhere indenfinately by someone but not disposed of - Like a radium wrist watch. If its thrown out, it needs to follow disposal laws. If accidentally thrown out, it may be detected at many of the landfill radioactive sensors and the state will try to investigate it. Many of these items get found that way.
In all reality the risk to health is pretty small from such devices, the radium is radium oxide, mixed with a phosphorescent paint, and painted into the dials on the gauges. Radium emits alpha, beta and some gamma and the exposure rate may be 1-2 mR/hour on the gauge itself. So exposure wise, its measurable, but at the drivers position, its negligible and It will generally be contained in the gauge and not contaminate your hand although it can creep if damaged over years. But Not much different than radioactive coleman lantern mantels you would handle with your bare hands and washing your hands would relive you of contamination. All = low risk and a greatly exaggerated concern of government in my opinion. Like lead, radium came naturally from the ground, but **** if anyone will let you put it back in the ground from which it came oddly enough.
Technically if it was to be retrieved not as waste but merely as a previously enjoyed radioactive device that is being owned for its intended purpose, you don't need special license to retrieve and own it. If its been designated as waste, then technically it need to be managed by someone licensed as a Transporter-Storer-Disposal-Facilitator TSDF.
Many aircraft mechanics and pilots deal with radioactive gauges in repair (less now than decades ago) but it can be done.
Last edited:
Xray,
Can you recommend a decent but cheap geiger detector or other detector that we can use to check our gauges and other surplus items? Also, I've been told that many of the glow in the dark gauges no longer glow due to the phosphorescent material wearing out even though the radium is still there and fully active. I know I have a number of gauges that look like glow in the dark gauges but they don't glow. What can you tell me about that?
Can you recommend a decent but cheap geiger detector or other detector that we can use to check our gauges and other surplus items? Also, I've been told that many of the glow in the dark gauges no longer glow due to the phosphorescent material wearing out even though the radium is still there and fully active. I know I have a number of gauges that look like glow in the dark gauges but they don't glow. What can you tell me about that?
- 9,580
- 218
- 63
- Location
- Dickson,TN
Would they even be legal to ship? I'd think not.
- 9,580
- 218
- 63
- Location
- Dickson,TN
I've seen the radiation detectors go off several times at the local scrap yards. Some of the know sources is water pipe that came from underground and most industrial furnaces will set the detectors off.
I personally saw the detectors go off when another guy hauled in some old water pipe. Apparently the pipe can pick up radiation out of the ground after a number of years.
I've scraped several furnaces that set off the detectors if the refractory was still in them. You can pull out the refractory and then they will usually pass. The refractory isn't radioactive when new but it seems the high heat does something to it. When you pull the refractory out it can go in a regular landfill as long as it doesn't contain asbestos. It seems the scrap yard detectors are very,very sensitive so even thought they won't take it, the landfill doesn't have a problem with it. This is all done in accordance with regulations and under the guidance of a licensed haz-mat company.
I personally saw the detectors go off when another guy hauled in some old water pipe. Apparently the pipe can pick up radiation out of the ground after a number of years.
I've scraped several furnaces that set off the detectors if the refractory was still in them. You can pull out the refractory and then they will usually pass. The refractory isn't radioactive when new but it seems the high heat does something to it. When you pull the refractory out it can go in a regular landfill as long as it doesn't contain asbestos. It seems the scrap yard detectors are very,very sensitive so even thought they won't take it, the landfill doesn't have a problem with it. This is all done in accordance with regulations and under the guidance of a licensed haz-mat company.
BigWill1985
New member
- 71
- 0
- 0
- Location
- Norfolk, VA
I am a radiological control technician in the navy and deal with both radiation and contamination on a daily basis. I have over 2.5 years of insanely crazy training inner my belt regulating to nuclear power, radiation, contamination, and their effects on the human body. I am responsible for working with very high levels of contamination, and also work in personnel decontamination (of radioactive contamination), and I frequently work with contaminated equipment and tools. I have authority to release tools and deem them safe per the navy's standards, which are very strict. I have 9 years of experience in this field.
A source as low as this is honestly safe, as long as it remains encased. Even ingesting a small amount wouldn't hurt you too bad. Alpha radiation will ultimately have very little affect on your internal organs. It can do surface damage to the skin surfaces, but nothing worse than the moon shine you buy from the guy down the street. Now, the gamma and beta radiation are what can do damage. But, not in a dose that low. Remember, the dose is 1-2 mrem per hour. That is equal to .001 rem per hour. That rate is probably on contact with the Gage face, too. The radiation level drops off at an exponential rate as you get further away. So, at 2" it is about 0.25-0.5 mrem poorer hour, or 0.00025-0.0005 rem per hour. The federal limit for radiation exposure is 50 rem per year. So, you would have to hold the Gage against your body for 100,000 hours nonstop to reach the limit. As for doing damage to your body, it is very unlikely in any account.
A study performed in the 1960's was performed on 10,000 people. Of these, approximately 20% were expected to die of cancer naturally (~200 people). This group received 10 rem of exposure over their lives, and 204 died of cancer (0.02% increase). Radiation at these levels are very safe.
As far as harm being done, acute doses are what you must worry about. A 25 rem dose absorbed over a few moments will give reddened skin, but very little in recognizable results. A 50 rem acute dose will give radiation sickness, but it is recoverable. As you exceed 100 rem acute doses, your chance of survival drops off at a pretty serious rate.
The moral of the story it's that you guys have nothing to worry about. Even if you ingested the entire amount of radium, your body will fight and excrete it (sweating, peeing, etc...). It won't stick in your body for any prolonged period of time.
I want to end this, though, by saying that all radiation does carry an inherent risk. Don't take radiation lightly. But, get a professional opinion and don't partake in fear mongering. You guys are safe.
~Will Courtier~
A source as low as this is honestly safe, as long as it remains encased. Even ingesting a small amount wouldn't hurt you too bad. Alpha radiation will ultimately have very little affect on your internal organs. It can do surface damage to the skin surfaces, but nothing worse than the moon shine you buy from the guy down the street. Now, the gamma and beta radiation are what can do damage. But, not in a dose that low. Remember, the dose is 1-2 mrem per hour. That is equal to .001 rem per hour. That rate is probably on contact with the Gage face, too. The radiation level drops off at an exponential rate as you get further away. So, at 2" it is about 0.25-0.5 mrem poorer hour, or 0.00025-0.0005 rem per hour. The federal limit for radiation exposure is 50 rem per year. So, you would have to hold the Gage against your body for 100,000 hours nonstop to reach the limit. As for doing damage to your body, it is very unlikely in any account.
A study performed in the 1960's was performed on 10,000 people. Of these, approximately 20% were expected to die of cancer naturally (~200 people). This group received 10 rem of exposure over their lives, and 204 died of cancer (0.02% increase). Radiation at these levels are very safe.
As far as harm being done, acute doses are what you must worry about. A 25 rem dose absorbed over a few moments will give reddened skin, but very little in recognizable results. A 50 rem acute dose will give radiation sickness, but it is recoverable. As you exceed 100 rem acute doses, your chance of survival drops off at a pretty serious rate.
The moral of the story it's that you guys have nothing to worry about. Even if you ingested the entire amount of radium, your body will fight and excrete it (sweating, peeing, etc...). It won't stick in your body for any prolonged period of time.
I want to end this, though, by saying that all radiation does carry an inherent risk. Don't take radiation lightly. But, get a professional opinion and don't partake in fear mongering. You guys are safe.
~Will Courtier~
- 18,541
- 5,852
- 113
BigWill:
Thank you for that informative post and for investing the time to compose it.
Do you have any insight for us about how y'all dispose of any tools that are contaminated?
Thanks.
John
Thank you for that informative post and for investing the time to compose it.
Do you have any insight for us about how y'all dispose of any tools that are contaminated?
Thanks.
John
I have an old civil defense Geiger counter that was working the last time I put fresh batteries in it so it probably still works. It does however, have a small radioactive source installed for self-checking (that is how I knew it was working) so shipping it around is probably a problem.
BigWill1985
New member
- 71
- 0
- 0
- Location
- Norfolk, VA
The tools we get rid of are bagged up and shipped to Washington state for disposition. They either incinerate the tool, or bury it to never be seen of again.
Add far as shipping goes, you guys have nothing to worry about. The navy ships radioactive test sources every day that are much more potent than anything you guys could even fathom. As long as the contamination is contained and can't be spread, no special controls are required due to the short amount of time anyone will be in contact with it.
Older Geiger counters are very inaccurate, I'm afraid. Most aren't accurate at all below 5-6 mrem per hour. You need tho step up to a scintillation detector, or a digital ion tube chamber radiac to get any decent low range accuracy.
I can talk more about this later. I'm flying back home at the moment, from a 4 month deployment. Been up for the last 20 hours and I'm kind of worn out.
~Will Courtier~
Add far as shipping goes, you guys have nothing to worry about. The navy ships radioactive test sources every day that are much more potent than anything you guys could even fathom. As long as the contamination is contained and can't be spread, no special controls are required due to the short amount of time anyone will be in contact with it.
Older Geiger counters are very inaccurate, I'm afraid. Most aren't accurate at all below 5-6 mrem per hour. You need tho step up to a scintillation detector, or a digital ion tube chamber radiac to get any decent low range accuracy.
I can talk more about this later. I'm flying back home at the moment, from a 4 month deployment. Been up for the last 20 hours and I'm kind of worn out.
~Will Courtier~