Re- babbitting a barring.

[madsam]

This is from a different thread. I bought an old Snogo snowblower with a 1200 cubic inch engine to run the blower. It was made by Climax Engineering out of Clinton Iowa. Some one ran the thing out of oil so 2 rod bearings went bad. The thing is that they are babbitt bearings. Apparently before abut 1940 most engine bearings were babbitt.

Babbitt metal, also called white metal,

* 90% tin 10% copper
* 89% tin 7% antimony 4% copper
* 80% lead 15% antimony 5% tin

These bearings are pored hot. Here is a link on poring babbitt bearings.
http://www.geocities.com/baja/canyon/4192/Gray/babbitt/babbitt.html

The nice thing about babbitt bearings is that the mettle is so soft that it does not cause major journal damage to the crank when it goes bad. It just melts. (That is assuming you stop the engine before it bangs to hard.) It is more subseptable to damage when low on lubrication. As I understand the new bearings use a thin layer of it on the surface because of its low friction.

 

[madsam]

The shims are brass, and are put in so that when the bearings get warn, you can adjust them and tighten them back up by removing the smallest shim.

This engine was designed before 1926 because I have an add from a magazine from that date with this engine on it.

 

[madsam]

I have found a place that will re-babbitt my rod bearings. I have to take the rods out and send it to them with the measurement on the journal. About $110 piece was quoted to me. Not to bad to get the thing working. I will post a pic of the new barrings when I get them. I do have to polish the crank journal first before I take the measurement. The only problem I see is getting the piston back in the cylinder from underneath without a 6 inch ring compressor. I don't want to crack the rings.

"Paul's rod and bearing"
6212 Nw Bell Rd
Kansas City, MO 64152
816-587-4747

 

[JasonS]

Egge Machine Company does rebabbiting of rod and main bearings. www.egge.com

If you go to www.webrodder.com and go to the engines section you can see an article on how this is done.

Wasn't Climax bought out by Waukesha around that time?

 

[WillWagner]

I don't think you will be able to remove the piston from the bottom. If you could drop the rod and piston down just far enough to expose the wrist pin, you could remove the rod from the piston that way and not disturb the ringpack. On some older engines, the upper rod was bolted into the piston, could yours be that way?

 

[madsam]

I was going to try to remove the rod without fully removing the piston, but, the rods are so long they hit the oil pan. (Cast iron oil pan.) So I have to remove the oil pan. I do not see a bolt holding the rod pin in. So I might have to pull the thing all the way out and have it pressed out.

 

[WillWagner]

Does it have individual cylinder heads? If it has to come out, it will only happen out the top. Are there still parts available for the engine. I wish you wer closer, i'd like to check that out. If you need polishing advice, let me know, i've cleaned up lots of journals.

 

[madsam]

The journals need a little polishing, but no major problems. The babbitt melted when it was supposed to and the journal is not gouged up. I just need to polish off traces of the old babbitt that melted on to the journal. There are no parts for this thing. It was a special engine in its day, and even more special now. I have looked from underneath and there is no lip in the cylinder to stop the piston from coming out the bottom. (The engine is so big, that I can git my big camera in there to take pictures. )

polishing:
I plan to use about 300 grit for a very short time and little pressure to clean off the babbitt. I then will hit it with 600 grit to smooth that out. Then steel wool. I was not sure if I should use oil or watter to lube with. the pan will be off, so I don't have to worry about getting watter in the engine.

I read off an old-- 1910 book on engines a good way to do this by using strips of sand paper and rap it all the way around so don't put to much pressure on one side of the bearing.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wq...ig=1kveYJLlEv4pL7o1Uivz-S99BOE&hl=en#PPA70,M1

I would be interested in any other opinions on this.

 

[WillWagner]

When I do it, I start with a 600 grit, hit it with an 800 and finish off with a crokus cloth. Make sure you turn the engine over to get an even amount of strokes at each side, I like to give it a 1/2 turn then a 1/4 turn and then another 1/4 'till it's good all the way around. Use no oil, it holds the particles too good, use a solvent, a petro or water based one, they do not hold on to the pieces you take off as well. Also, when you first start out, rip off a good 2 - 3 foot section and take the edge off of it by running it over the edge of a piece of metal. Use nice long strokes. Take pics as you go so others can see what you do. Don't use sand paper, use cloth backed emery cloth. PM me if you need some, I have a sheat load of it.

 

[madsam]

Thanks.. I will be doing that in a couple of weeks. First I need the rods out so I can send them away to be babbitted.

I do have 2 problems with the design of this engine.

1. There is no air filter. The intake runs over to the exhaust for warm air then out the top holes. I know it is supposed to be run when it is snowing, but I would feel better if it had even a simple cloth filter. I cant change it to much without re adjusting carbs. (I did that on an old Honda motorcycle. Put a better filter and had to adjust all the carbs again. )

2. There is no oil filter. There is just a strainer with 1/32 inch holes. Especially with this engine meltdown, I think it needs a filter.. Don't know what that means.


By the way, the journals are 3' exactly. I had to get a new micrometer to be able to measure them.

 

[rmgill]

My humber has babbet bearings in it. It's not supposed to be a hard thing to do, mainly you need the metal, a small forge to heat the bearing metal and some clay to make up a mold and gate around the area to be 'filled' with white metal. I'll bet those screws on the inside of the journals are the pouring gate points. Once you pour the lead and it's solid, you then scrape the oil paths and cut out the excess metal.

 

[madsam]

Does anyone have opinions on how to put an oil filter in this? Usually the filter is after the pump but this pump directly pumps into the block. That strainer is on the input of the pump. If nothing else, I was thinking a cotton bag over the strainer would at least be better than nothing. I just don't want to starve the thing of oil.

I have an idea on air filter.

 

[DanMartin]

This is a very interesting thread...I loved the re-babbeting process outlined on that site...very cool stuff. Real craftsmen.

As far as the oil filter, I think your only hope is a bypass filter...not the best of options, but at least it's something. Maybe plumbed in with an electric pump to up the flow and maybe pull from the bottom of the pan where the crud collects. If you want to get really fancy you could add a centrifuge to the filtering mechanism. It would be cheap insurance to keep that old motor running (lots cheaper than *making* the new parts if they fail).

Very cool guys...love to see the old-school stuff.

 

[madsam]

more pics of the engine.

 

[madsam]

OK I am running into a problem. I took the nut off the clamp on the rod that held the pin in and expected the pin to just slid out. It moves about 1/2 inch either way, but won't come out. One end has slots in it. Is there a trick to getting the int to slide out after the clamp is loose?

I tapped with a hammer, but I did not think these would need to be pressed out as it had a clamp.

The strap is to keep the rod from falling if the pin came out.

 

[TacticalTruck]

Why remove the piston? Just remove the bearing shell and have it re-babbited. It will require a bit more set up on the maching shop side but you won't have to disturb the rest of the engine. We are doing the bearings for the Virginia Museum for Military Vehicle's M1917 tank.
Jeff
www.CommercialToolandDie.com

 

[WillWagner]

Not to pee pee on you parade, but the bearing on the 2nd journal looks wiped too. A good rule of thumb is that the condition of the rod bearings determine the condition of the mains. Also. if the upper rod bushing is a babbited type, it too could be damaged along with any and all other bearings in the engine...rocker shaft bushings, lube pump bushings, cam bushings, etc. The pin might need to be pressed or maybe heat the piston to come out. Does the rod move the same amount as the pin when you try to move it. See the vertical scratches on the piston skirts? Those are usually made from bebris flting around in the oil slash and sticking the the piston. Can you drop a main to see what it looks like? Do a break away torque if you do so you have a close re assembly torque.

 

[madsam]

I know. Both of those bearings are bad. I plan to pull the main cap on both sides just to see. if they have issues. The place I have talked to, who I have gotten good references on, wants the whole rod. They say they get a better job with the whole rod. (If I can get it out. ) The reason it won't some out is that the access place on the side is about 1 inch to short. I was sure I could get it out, bu that was before I found out how long the piston was. I would love to find rebuild docs on this engine, but so far I have not been able to. If the mains are bad... Well, then I will have all the barrings done. the upper rod bushings move smoothly with no slack. They are not babbitted. The other rod barrings are good. ( checked 2 others. will check all of them. )


I think the pin moves 1/2 inch either way, but the amount the rod moves in the piston is about 1/4 inch. So I think it is sliding a little. I did not want to push it, so I was only tapping a little with a hammer.

No matter what, there is more things to check.

(You are not pee pee on my parade. I appreciate any ideas. )

 

[madsam]

I was just looking at a page on the Model B ford. That engine was designed about the same date as this one. There is many similarities. This engine is like a 6 cylinder - XXXL version of that engine. Here is a pic of the rods. It looks like what I see in the piston. It looks like the pin should slide out. ?? Still looking.

 

[madsam]

Wheww.. I finally got the rods out... It turns out the bolt through the upper rod to clamp the pin also locks the pin in a notch. Once the bolt is pushed up, it releases the pin. Had to tap it out with a bent piece of wood, but the rods are now out.

The more I look at it, the more I see this is just a large 6 cylinder model b engine. The rods are large copies. The cam is in the same place. the lifter access looks the same. The only difference is that it is not flathead.

Now I know what the slots are for. It is going to be hard to align the notch pin to the bolt.